Do you think that Rust and Jake could elevate Geno enough where a drop off in 1st line production is acceptable/mitigated?

I think Rak and Rust are about the same. It all comes down to Smith being able to step up I guess. I can see why there is little faith in him to do that.
- Thorny87

I'm not sure to be honest, I was really trying to pay attention to Geno's line the last game and I feel like there were multiple times that he carried the puck in on a zone entry 1v2 or 1v3 and when he pulled up to look for a trailer to pass to, the guys were so far behind him that the play died. Is that going to change with Jake and Rust? Maybe, but in those situations he has to dump the puck into the corner and hope his wingers get on their horses to retrieve that puck but they're so far behind the play I'm not sure it would matter who's on his line. I think it's more of a stylistic mis-match. Smith was supposed to be good off the rush and he was at the beginning of the year but lately he's been invisible.

I'm not sure to be honest, I was really trying to pay attention to Geno's line the last game and I feel like there were multiple times that he carried the puck in on a zone entry 1v2 or 1v3 and when he pulled up to look for a trailer to pass to, the guys were so far behind him that the play died. Is that going to change with Jake and Rust? Maybe, but in those situations he has to dump the puck into the corner and hope his wingers get on their horses to retrieve that puck but they're so far behind the play I'm not sure it would matter who's on his line. I think it's more of a stylistic mis-match. Smith was supposed to be good off the rush and he was at the beginning of the year but lately he's been invisible.
- j.boyd919

The narrative has always been it's not easy to play with Sid but I would say Geno takes the cake there. He is unpredictable and last game there were a few times where he got crossed up with his wingers to the point of completely botching the play.

Part of me really wants to see what Jake can do without Sid.

I agree right now Geno is a big step down from Sid but is a Rak-Sid-Smith line way worse than Jake and Rusty?
- Thorny87

Sid with Jake is magic, just enjoy it.

Do you think that Rust and Jake could elevate Geno enough where a drop off in 1st line production is acceptable/mitigated?

I think Rak and Rust are about the same. It all comes down to Smith being able to step up I guess. I can see why there is little faith in him to do that.
- Thorny87

Rak and Rust are similar offensively, but you lose something defensively. Still that's an acceptable swap to me.

You answer your own question on Smith v Jake. I just see no reason to mess with a pairing that is honestly keeping the team afloat.

This is a rare occurrence where my eyes and gut feeling make me not care what the stats, both old fashioned and new age fancy alike, say at all. On a pretty smooth team he is a bit of sandpaper. Sandpaper is needed in a lineup.

I'm now gone off to see if I can find the Pens' PK efficiency with him in/out of lineup.

EDIT: So, from the start of the season until December 1st the Pens had the 8th ranked PK (5th ranked from Nov 1st to Dec 1st). Accairi went down on December 2nd and didnt come back until the December 18th. In that time frame the Pens had the 24th ranked PK.

From December 18th, after his return, up to today the Pens have the 11th ranked PK.

Also worth noting that Accairi leads all Pens players in hits, even with missing a few weeks.
- MattStrat

I know this conversation continued. My recollection was that multiple PKers went down at the same time, not just Accairi, and it caused a mess as the Pens didn't recall their best PKers in WBS to fill the void. Again, I think Accairi is fine at the PK, but not some kind of ace who elevates the group.

I agree about the team needing some sandpaper players. But for once, can we get ones with some ability to hold their own and not just guys who are bad even by fourth line standards?

This is part of where Poulin can help. Even if he likely never becomes the PF they hoped when using a first on him, he's good at the PK, can play well enough for a bottom six role, and isn't afraid to fight anyone if needed.

I know this conversation continued. My recollection was that multiple PKers went down at the same time, not just Accairi, and it caused a mess as the Pens didn't recall their best PKers in WBS to fill the void. Again, I think Accairi is fine at the PK, but not some kind of ace who elevates the group.

I agree about the team needing some sandpaper players. But for once, can we get ones with some ability to hold their own and not just guys who are bad even by fourth line standards?

This is part of where Poulin can help. Even if he likely never becomes the PF they hoped when using a first on him, he's good at the PK, can play well enough for a bottom six role, and isn't afraid to fight anyone if needed.
- Tojo.

Gruden, Koppanen, Felipe, and White has also done some PK time. They actually have one of the best PK's in the AHL. Gruden and Koppanen are pretty good on the PK.

Sid with Jake is magic, just enjoy it.
- MickV

Honestly I’m over it. I’d like to see something else.

Honestly I’m over it. I’d like to see something else.
- Grinder47

They are great together, one of the top few lines in the NHL. Also, the suggestions here involve swapping in other players currently on the team, which are all inferior and would not be as fun to watch with Sid.

They are great together, one of the top few lines in the NHL. Also, the suggestions here involve swapping in other players currently on the team, which are all inferior and would not be as fun to watch with Sid.
- MickV

Didn’t say they weren’t great but Sid and Jake have either not made the playoffs or lost in the first round for 6 years. I’m good I’d like to see a major change.

Didn’t say they weren’t great but Sid and Jake have either not made the playoffs or lost in the first round for 6 years. I’m good I’d like to see a major change.
- Grinder47

I think you make that change basically anywhere else. They ain't the problem.

I just watched Danton Hienen get his 10th goal of the season, a short handy breakaway vs the Nucks....he had 8 goals in total for the Pens all of last season (65 games) haha

Lars Eller's bobbing and weaving striving to obstruct the goalie's view and possible deflection was the main reason for the second squad goal, IMO. I was as skeptical as anyone in his Aquisition. However, I was quite mistaken. Dude has great hoskey smarts!

Go Lars!

I just watched Danton Hienen get his 10th goal of the season, a short handy breakaway vs the Nucks....he had 8 goals in total for the Pens all of last season (65 games) haha
- MattStrat

Yeah...I saw that as well. I also recently watched San Jose and watched Granlund look really good.. I don't get it.

I think you make that change basically anywhere else. They ain't the problem.
- Tojo.

I don’t think Jake’s going to give them that option. I think Jake’s departure could spark a change in culture that is desperately needed.

Yeah...I saw that as well. I also recently watched San Jose and watched Granlund look really good.. I don't get it.
- 123Kid

Sullivan.

Didn’t say they weren’t great but Sid and Jake have either not made the playoffs or lost in the first round for 6 years. I’m good I’d like to see a major change.
- Grinder47

Horribly non critical thinking short sighted take.....I was on your side with Accairi...you've lost me again with this crap hahaha

Yeah...I saw that as well. I also recently watched San Jose and watched Granlund look really good.. I don't get it.
- 123Kid

We've discussed Granlund a few times this season around here....in a nutshell he's being used at center, on the top line, top PP and getting like 7 to 10 more mins of ice time a game.

Sullivan.
- Grinder47

Heinen had almost 20 goals averaging only 12ish mins a game, mostly being used in bottom six, the season before....guess who his coach was?

Lars Eller's bobbing and weaving striving to obstruct the goalie's view and possible deflection was the main reason for the second squad goal, IMO. I was as skeptical as anyone in his Aquisition. However, I was quite mistaken. Dude has great hoskey smarts!

Go Lars!
- powerhouse

Eller's a decent player if you don't expect him to contribute in the top-6. Probably overpaid but a decent player.

We've discussed Granlund a few times this season around here....in a nutshell he's being used at center, on the top line, top PP and getting like 7 to 10 more mins of ice time a game.
- MattStrat

He is definitely shining brighter there than he would have here because of ice time. I thought the trade to get him was dumb... how do we evaluate the trade to get rid of him?

I think you can make the argument that we would have been better off with Granlund and Petry than we have been with Karlsson.

Karlsson has been good but has not acheived the goal of turning around the powerplay. I don't blame that on him but that to me was the real advantage to getting him. He has been close to as we should have expected (minus the PP results).

Petry has been solid in Detroit, as he was in Pittsburgh. Karlsson has been a clear upgrade but Petry is still proving to be a fine 2RD.

Granlund would not have been doing here what he is doing with the Sharks. But he looks like a different player this year (injuries/adjustments maybe) and for sure could have been a better contributor than Smith has been in the middle six.

The 1st rounder could have been a good trade chip to add right now.

Beyond all of this, Granlund would have been on an expiring contract which would have easily cleared room to resign Jake. The Karlsson contract is the biggest stressor on getting an extension for Jake done. To me, the Karlsson trade was a big misstep but one that made some sense when they made the move.

He is definitely shining brighter there than he would have here because of ice time. I thought the trade to get him was dumb... how do we evaluate the trade to get rid of him?

I think you can make the argument that we would have been better off with Granlund and Petry than we have been with Karlsson.

Karlsson has been good but has not acheived the goal of turning around the powerplay. I don't blame that on him but that to me was the real advantage to getting him. He has been close to as we should have expected (minus the PP results).

Petry has been solid in Detroit, as he was in Pittsburgh. Karlsson has been a clear upgrade but Petry is still proving to be a fine 2RD.

Granlund would not have been doing here what he is doing with the Sharks. But he looks like a different player this year (injuries/adjustments maybe) and for sure could have been a better contributor than Smith has been in the middle six.

The 1st rounder could have been a good trade chip to add right now.

Beyond all of this, Granlund would have been on an expiring contract which would have easily cleared room to resign Jake. The Karlsson contract is the biggest stressor on getting an extension for Jake done. To me, the Karlsson trade was a big misstep but one that made some sense when they made the move.
- MacPatty

Absolutely not. Your argument for that is brutal.

He is definitely shining brighter there than he would have here because of ice time. I thought the trade to get him was dumb... how do we evaluate the trade to get rid of him?

I think you can make the argument that we would have been better off with Granlund and Petry than we have been with Karlsson.

Karlsson has been good but has not acheived the goal of turning around the powerplay. I don't blame that on him but that to me was the real advantage to getting him. He has been close to as we should have expected (minus the PP results).

Petry has been solid in Detroit, as he was in Pittsburgh. Karlsson has been a clear upgrade but Petry is still proving to be a fine 2RD.

Granlund would not have been doing here what he is doing with the Sharks. But he looks like a different player this year (injuries/adjustments maybe) and for sure could have been a better contributor than Smith has been in the middle six.

The 1st rounder could have been a good trade chip to add right now.

Beyond all of this, Granlund would have been on an expiring contract which would have easily cleared room to resign Jake. The Karlsson contract is the biggest stressor on getting an extension for Jake done. To me, the Karlsson trade was a big misstep but one that made some sense when they made the move.
- MacPatty

Granlund's contract still has another year on it, as does Petry's. They don't expire this year. We also got rid of Rutta and CDS in that trade. We were over the cap with those players.

Where would Granlund play with the Pens? He's a pass-first soft guy. He can't play with Malkin or Crosby. That's what was so maddening about the trade, he's just not the type of player that works with Sid or Geno, he was making $5M, what do you do with him on this team?

Granlund's contract still has another year on it, as does Petry's. They don't expire this year. We also got rid of Rutta and CDS in that trade. We were over the cap with those players.

Where would Granlund play with the Pens? He's a pass-first soft guy. He can't play with Malkin or Crosby. That's what was so maddening about the trade, he's just not the type of player that works with Sid or Geno, he was making $5M, what do you do with him on this team?
- MickV

Ah, I knew Petry's did but thought Granlund was done after this year. Neuters my arguement a little bit. I thought Rutta was good in his role and he has done a pretty fine job playing second pair minutes for San Jose.

Trust me, I didn't specifically want Granlund and was majorly opposed to the trade when it happened, but he likely would have been our 3C and I can't imagine he would be doing worse than Smith has so far for an equal cap hit.

So its:
Karlsson
Smith
Graves
Ned

vs

Petry
Granlund
Rutta
Desmith
1st rounder
A bunch of cap space.

Going into the season, I would have said we did ok there, but in retrospect with how bad Graves and Smith have been, we would have been better off staying put. At least we would be looking at shorter contracts, more cap space and a 1st rounder still. I still think Graves can turn it around and be a good addition.

Hopefully the Pens can get a win streak going and figure out what is happening with Jake in the next few weeks. Won't be surprised to see a big shakeup coming in the meantime.

Horribly non critical thinking short sighted take.....I was on your side with Accairi...you've lost me again with this crap hahaha
- MattStrat

It’s not really a take. Jake and Sid are just are just boring to me and a different player might bring out a few more tricks Sid has up his sleeve. Or it could be better, you never know.