https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/11-010-x/2011001/article/11401-eng.pdf?st=5tVKQhgz




By most conventional measures – real GDP, employment or hours worked – the 2008-2009 recession was less severe than those starting in 1981 and 1990. This holds true whether one is comparing the drop from peak to trough or the time needed to recoup the losses experienced during a recession.

- golfingsince

Next sentence:

However, the relatively milder outcome of the 2008-2009 recession does not capture the significant impacts stemming from the global financial crisis.

So sure, milder for Canada, but when we're talking about a more global mindset of the youth not wanting to work, it's a bit myopic.

I just wish the people who are quiet quitting would shut up and be quiet about it.

I don’t take work home, it’s great, everyone should do that. But doing the minimum is a sure way to get noticed for all the wrong reasons, and bypassed for higher wages, more responsibility, more fulfilling work and ultimately more opportunity of work/life balance. Ironic.
- 1970vintage

Honest questions: how old are you? how secure are you in your job?

From what I've read and heard, most people who "quiet quit" are burned out from working extra hours, from being given half of someones workload after they're fired, from going above and beyond their job duties.. and when they ask to be compensated for being given more responsibility, they're told no. That's when people's mindset shifts to "I put in all this time and effort, and I'm not being compensated for it, so I'll go back to what I'm contractually supposed to do for the rate I am supposed to get."

Of course these people know that means they're not going to be in line for the promotion or whatever in the few years when it comes up (and most will have probably changed their job by then, as younger people are more inclined to do), but again it's a mindset shift in younger people who are valuing a work/life balance in the present instead of the future.

Next sentence:

However, the relatively milder outcome of the 2008-2009 recession does not capture the significant impacts stemming from the global financial crisis.

So sure, milder for Canada, but when we're talking about a more global mindset of the youth not wanting to work, it's a bit myopic.
- NewYorkNuck

We're Canadians? You're the one trying to convince us that kids in Canada face unprecedented hardship and when we post evidence to the contrary you move the goalposts.

Your initial point used the GVRD's real estate index, which is among the highest in the world for growth over the past 40 years and certainly much higher than Canada as a whole.

If you want to take the whole world into consideration now shouldn't you post the more modest real estate figures? I'll post some perspective.

Canada's real estate has grown by 140% since 2005 until Q3 2021. For the GVRD this is much closer to 300%.

The US by comparison grew by 15.3%. The next highest in the G7 is Germany at 49.3%, roughly a third of the rate.

you kill me, I can envision you around the family table, boys no need to work for living, just protest things will change, that's right boys stand by your principals why should you have to earn anything in life, yell, scream, march on parliament. Working is for those that want grander things in life and that's not you guys, nope you guys deserve better, why, well just because is all.
- Makita

Yes, that’s exactly the advice I give my kids.

Guess what? Life is hard.
- golfingsince

Yes, but we are part of the problem if we don’t constantly look at ways to address the problems inherent to our social, economic and political systems.

I’m hoping the youth of today and generations after don’t accept the concept that life has to be a dread as you’ve stated. Maybe, there is a better way. We’ll never know if we just accept the “norm”.

We're Canadians? You're the one trying to convince us that kids in Canada face unprecedented hardship and when we post evidence to the contrary you move the goalposts.

Your initial point used the GVRD's real estate index, which is among the highest in the world for growth over the past 40 years and certainly much higher than Canada as a whole.

If you want to take the whole world into consideration now shouldn't you post the more modest real estate figures? I'll post some perspective.

Canada's real estate has grown by 140% since 2005 until Q3 2021. For the GVRD this is much closer to 300%.

The US by comparison grew by 15.3%. The next highest in the G7 is Germany at 49.3%, roughly a third of the rate.
- golfingsince

What goalposts am I moving? This conversation started with "young people don't want to work" in context of Treadeau job number but shifted to the larger Western cultural aspect (which I've stated before) since this "young people not wanting to work" is not specific to Canada.

Sure, I used some Canadian housing market statistics because I didn't feel like delving into country and world-wide trends and research (and most people here understand the Vancouver housing market), but the sentiment is the same around the world.

Also, where are you getting your numbers from, if I may ask? I can't find any specific article for that, but looking at the average housing prices from the US in 2005 ($283,000) to 2021 (~$400,000) is a much larger jump than 15.3%.

Even this site, which is for new home sales, says the US was $297 in 2005 and $391k in 2020: https://www.statista.com/...new-homes-sold-in-the-us/

Yes, but we are part of the problem if we don’t constantly look at ways to address the problems inherent to our social, economic and political systems.

I’m hoping the youth of today and generations after don’t accept the concept that life has to be a dread as you’ve stated. Maybe, there is a better way. We’ll never know if we just accept the “norm”.
- bloatedmosquito

https://betterdwelling.co...ster-than-us-home-prices/

Honest questions: how old are you? how secure are you in your job?

From what I've read and heard, most people who "quiet quit" are burned out from working extra hours, from being given half of someones workload after they're fired, from going above and beyond their job duties.. and when they ask to be compensated for being given more responsibility, they're told no. That's when people's mindset shifts to "I put in all this time and effort, and I'm not being compensated for it, so I'll go back to what I'm contractually supposed to do for the rate I am supposed to get."

Of course these people know that means they're not going to be in line for the promotion or whatever in the few years when it comes up (and most will have probably changed their job by then, as younger people are more inclined to do), but again it's a mindset shift in younger people who are valuing a work/life balance in the present instead of the future.
- NewYorkNuck

52, I’ve worked since I was 13. I made the decision in about 2018 to stop being connected 24/7. All work related communications paused the moment I left, other than a direct text or call in case of emergency. But there’s a big difference between doing the minimum and doing a good job. When the pandemic hit I went from managing a department to managing a department AND working in it regularly, because of how often someone was “sick”. It was brutal, I didn’t get paid more, but my employer also kept the doors open, and continued to pay me when the doors were shut on us by the government.

I think what younger people don’t grasp is that the risks the employer take are far greater than the risks of the employee. Want more money when you do more work? Fine, be prepared to earn less money when you do less work then…

In NHL terms, if a player who is a scorer goes into a slump should the team get to skip a pay cheque?

Yes, but we are part of the problem if we don’t constantly look at ways to address the problems inherent to our social, economic and political systems.

I’m hoping the youth of today and generations after don’t accept the concept that life has to be a dread as you’ve stated. Maybe, there is a better way. We’ll never know if we just accept the “norm”.
- bloatedmosquito

Hope you know I was being facetious, just having a great chuckle putting words together.

So does everyone here hate their job? What is this dread that has been stated. I actually loved my job, even at my age it was more than fulfilling and interesting.

Working has afforded me a very comfortable life for which I am very grateful and proud of achieving. Now I watch my children and my daughter is burnt out, she has placed ultimatums on her employer and if they don't concede she will leave. But she also loves working and has stated I had a job before this one and I will have a job after this one, that is an attitude I applaud.

My son got his degree in computer engineering and hated it, $10's of thousands in education walked away from. He now has a construction company that specializes in timber frame construction and is quite successful.

When did working become dread and why?

52, I’ve worked since I was 13. I made the decision in about 2018 to stop being connected 24/7. All work related communications paused the moment I left, other than a direct text or call in case of emergency. But there’s a big difference between doing the minimum and doing a good job. When the pandemic hit I went from managing a department to managing a department AND working in it regularly, because of how often someone was “sick”. It was brutal, I didn’t get paid more, but my employer also kept the doors open, and continued to pay me when the doors were shut on us by the government.

I think what younger people don’t grasp is that the risks the employer take are far greater than the risks of the employee. Want more money when you do more work? Fine, be prepared to earn less money when you do less work then…

In NHL terms, if a player who is a scorer goes into a slump should the team get to skip a pay cheque?
- 1970vintage

The reason I asked is because of the privilege attached to being able to make that decision. It's sort of a catch-22, because if young people/people starting out did that, then they would been seen as not a team player/not hard working/would get passed over, no? I'm glad you're able to do that though, it's such a huge thing for mental health.

This is all a large nuanced conversation we're trying to distill down into a few internet posts, and everyone's experience is different.

As for the risks for employer vs employee, that's a totally different conversation, and we've touched on Marxism here in the past lol

As for your NHL analogy, take a look at the NFL, they're pretty ruthless

https://betterdwelling.com/canadas-real-estate-bubble-has-grown-over-800-faster-than-us-home-prices/
- golfingsince

Like I said I'm not a economics expert, so there's a lot that's above my knowledge and I can only read things and put together some really basic things.

However, it seems like property around the world is increasing rapidly, so much so it's caused governmental concern.... again, making it harder for young people everywhere

The reason I asked is because of the privilege attached to being able to make that decision. It's sort of a catch-22, because if young people/people starting out did that, then they would been seen as not a team player/not hard working/would get passed over, no? I'm glad you're able to do that though, it's such a huge thing for mental health.

This is all a large nuanced conversation we're trying to distill down into a few internet posts, and everyone's experience is different.

As for the risks for employer vs employee, that's a totally different conversation, and we've touched on Marxism here in the past lol

As for your NHL analogy, take a look at the NFL, they're pretty ruthless
- NewYorkNuck

I honestly believe that this topic is a red herring. Nobody in an entry level position is expected/required to be available 24/7, they just are because they are tied to their devices. Unless we’re talking premium profession like a lawyer or physician. I know some industries are more notorious for burning people out - software design for example, but I think that for many it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. They are on their phone 24/7, they respond 24/7, therefore people who communicate with them become accustomed to being able to reach them whenever they want.

Anyway, I don’t believe the younger generation is THE problem, just like Travis Green wasn’t. Sure, things have shifted and many young people don’t want to work, or work as much, but I work with a number of young people who are very good employees. The pandemic encouraged many people my age or a bit older to retire early, birth rates are down, immigration is down, social welfare is at an all time high. Lots of reasons employers are having a tough time, including their inability to adapt with the times. For example, my employer goes by the letter of the law when it comes to breaks. Nobody is allowed to work more than 5 hours without taking a 30 minute (unpaid) meal break. In the hospitality industry that is just impossible to do if you’re open for more than 5 hours. I’m sorry sir, your server is on a break for half hour, you’ll just have to wait for another beer. Anyway, what it means is that even though I don’t set aside 30 minutes to do no work, I have to be at work for 8 1/2 hours to work my 8 hours. Instead of a raise, if they paid me for my half hour break (which I don’t take anyway) so that I only had to be there 8 hours I would take that for sure. But that’s not the way they do things, so nobody thinks it would work… or there’s plenty of things I could do from home by dialing into my computer, but that’s not an option.

Anyway, good conversation, hopefully everybody is learning something from the different perspectives.

I honestly believe that this topic is a red herring. Nobody in an entry level position is expected/required to be available 24/7, they just are because they are tied to their devices. Unless we’re talking premium profession like a lawyer or physician. I know some industries are more notorious for burning people out - software design for example, but I think that for many it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. They are on their phone 24/7, they respond 24/7, therefore people who communicate with them become accustomed to being able to reach them whenever they want.

Anyway, I don’t believe the younger generation is THE problem, just like Travis Green wasn’t. Sure, things have shifted and many young people don’t want to work, or work as much, but I work with a number of young people who are very good employees. The pandemic encouraged many people my age or a bit older to retire early, birth rates are down, immigration is down, social welfare is at an all time high. Lots of reasons employers are having a tough time, including their inability to adapt with the times. For example, my employer goes by the letter of the law when it comes to breaks. Nobody is allowed to work more than 5 hours without taking a 30 minute (unpaid) meal break. In the hospitality industry that is just impossible to do if you’re open for more than 5 hours. I’m sorry sir, your server is on a break for half hour, you’ll just have to wait for another beer. Anyway, what it means is that even though I don’t set aside 30 minutes to do no work, I have to be at work for 8 1/2 hours to work my 8 hours. Instead of a raise, if they paid me for my half hour break (which I don’t take anyway) so that I only had to be there 8 hours I would take that for sure. But that’s not the way they do things, so nobody thinks it would work… or there’s plenty of things I could do from home by dialing into my computer, but that’s not an option.

Anyway, good conversation, hopefully everybody is learning something from the different perspectives.
- 1970vintage

Entry level no, and I mean for things like retail or construction it's not necessarily the same. But that doesn't mean it doesn't impact the "youth" – and everyone for that matter, but younger people generally aren't in the same position to dictate their work as much as older/more experienced people are. But I agree, there's definitely more access because young people are on their phone all the time – though I think it's a positive feedback cycle in that they're on it, so they're expected to answer, so they're on it, so they're expected to answer, etc. Culture in general is more immediate, especially in North America. Being in Europe for the past year+, it's definitely a lot slower for people to respond to emails. A little something like:



Agree with the bolded for sure – I'd also add in the pandemic shifted people's mindsets to question the value/importance of work in their life. A lot of people got to work from home, were laid off and collected EI (sometimes mores than they were making), found other hobbies or career interests... and so part of this stems from that huge shift

I honestly believe that this topic is a red herring. Nobody in an entry level position is expected/required to be available 24/7, they just are because they are tied to their devices. Unless we’re talking premium profession like a lawyer or physician. I know some industries are more notorious for burning people out - software design for example, but I think that for many it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. They are on their phone 24/7, they respond 24/7, therefore people who communicate with them become accustomed to being able to reach them whenever they want.

Anyway, I don’t believe the younger generation is THE problem, just like Travis Green wasn’t. Sure, things have shifted and many young people don’t want to work, or work as much, but I work with a number of young people who are very good employees. The pandemic encouraged many people my age or a bit older to retire early, birth rates are down, immigration is down, social welfare is at an all time high. Lots of reasons employers are having a tough time, including their inability to adapt with the times. For example, my employer goes by the letter of the law when it comes to breaks. Nobody is allowed to work more than 5 hours without taking a 30 minute (unpaid) meal break. In the hospitality industry that is just impossible to do if you’re open for more than 5 hours. I’m sorry sir, your server is on a break for half hour, you’ll just have to wait for another beer. Anyway, what it means is that even though I don’t set aside 30 minutes to do no work, I have to be at work for 8 1/2 hours to work my 8 hours. Instead of a raise, if they paid me for my half hour break (which I don’t take anyway) so that I only had to be there 8 hours I would take that for sure. But that’s not the way they do things, so nobody thinks it would work… or there’s plenty of things I could do from home by dialing into my computer, but that’s not an option.

Anyway, good conversation, hopefully everybody is learning something from the different perspectives.
- 1970vintage

What's going on in here an essay writing contest?

Hope you know I was being facetious, just having a great chuckle putting words together.

So does everyone here hate their job? What is this dread that has been stated. I actually loved my job, even at my age it was more than fulfilling and interesting.

Working has afforded me a very comfortable life for which I am very grateful and proud of achieving. Now I watch my children and my daughter is burnt out, she has placed ultimatums on her employer and if they don't concede she will leave. But she also loves working and has stated I had a job before this one and I will have a job after this one, that is an attitude I applaud.

My son got his degree in computer engineering and hated it, $10's of thousands in education walked away from. He now has a construction company that specializes in timber frame construction and is quite successful.

When did working become dread and why?
- Makita

I was just commenting on golfing's "Guess what? Life is hard" statement in regards to people not being happy with their employment conditions. That typically is the sentiment of an older generation to a younger generation when that younger generation complains about working conditions. No different then it was in the 60's and 70's when social upheaval was at its peek.

I just had my bi-yearly employment review. I was asked how I felt about my job and my exact response was "I love my job. I just hate how we do it." I essentially called out my managers and directors for implementing such stupid processes and work policies. Again, that's typical in a government run organization and most of my peers (who happen to be around my age 50+) just put up with it.

My point being, most people like to work in meaningful positions but many work environments have become intolerable and some folks (especially younger workers) aren't putting up with it anymore. Here's an example from a recent article I read:

During the COVID-19 pandemic, government-implemented stay-at-home and social distancing mandates forced many companies to adjust their operations to accommodate work-from-home models. And according to several studies, these transitions ultimately ended up positively affecting businesses’ bottom lines. Remote employees ended up being more productive and were happier with their jobs, which culminated in lower turnover rates and higher profits/efficacy per worker. On top of that, businesses ended up saving a ton of money in overhead costs.

However, after COVID-19 restrictions began to scale back, most companies began asking their workforce to return back to the office. According to the study mentioned in the article, 57% of workers under the age of 40 are looking for fully-remote jobs, and there are an even larger number of people who would like a hybrid option as well.

Younger employees are forcing the hand of business stuck in the past and I think that's just super. Life is challenging, but it doesn't need to be hard, especially if it being hard is created by stupid, outdated philosophies.

I was just commenting on golfing's "Guess what? Life is hard" statement in regards to people not being happy with their employment conditions. That typically is the sentiment of an older generation to a younger generation when that younger generation complains about working conditions. No different then it was in the 60's and 70's when social upheaval was at its peek.

I just had my bi-yearly employment review. I was asked how I felt about my job and my exact response was "I love my job. I just hate how we do it." I essentially called out my managers and directors for implementing such stupid processes and work policies. Again, that's typical in a government run organization and most of my peers (who happen to be around my age 50+) just put up with it.

My point being, most people like to work in meaningful positions but many work environments have become intolerable and some folks (especially younger workers) aren't putting up with it anymore. Here's an example from a recent article I read:

During the COVID-19 pandemic, government-implemented stay-at-home and social distancing mandates forced many companies to adjust their operations to accommodate work-from-home models. And according to several studies, these transitions ultimately ended up positively affecting businesses’ bottom lines. Remote employees ended up being more productive and were happier with their jobs, which culminated in lower turnover rates and higher profits/efficacy per worker. On top of that, businesses ended up saving a ton of money in overhead costs.

However, after COVID-19 restrictions began to scale back, most companies began asking their workforce to return back to the office. According to the study mentioned in the article, 57% of workers under the age of 40 are looking for fully-remote jobs, and there are an even larger number of people who would like a hybrid option as well.

Younger employees are forcing the hand of business stuck in the past and I think that's just super. Life is challenging, but it doesn't need to be hard, especially if it being hard is created by stupid, outdated philosophies.
- bloatedmosquito

Read an article in the BBC the other day that was talking about remote working, and something like the majority of employees feel they're more productive, and the majority of employers/managers feel their employees are less productive. It's definitely a new dynamic that's creating friction. Add into that the rise of "bossware" where employers can digitally monitor their employees' productivity...

What's going on in here an essay writing contest?
- VanHockeyGuy

What's going on in here an essay writing contest?
- VanHockeyGuy

Better?

I think I'll run for office on the idea of shorter work weeks.

I think I'll run for office on the idea of shorter work weeks.
- golfingsince

I think I'll run for office on the idea of shorter work weeks.
- golfingsince

I’d take a shorter week over a pay raise at this point.

I’d take a shorter week over a pay raise at this point.
- 1970vintage

Have you asked your wife?

I think I'll run for office on the idea of shorter work weeks.
- golfingsince

Take that Henry Ford bullshit out of there. Just be aware, you're going to be labeled a Marxist and Communist for suggesting such things though