Tavares is past the point of outscoring his deficiencies.
- Rare_Jewel

Yup, 11 points in 9 games sure does suck

Let's apply that logic.

Took 30 years to get a guy like Tavares to sign with the Leafs.

What did they win? Nothing.

Missing out on the next Tavares quite obviously doesn't mean (frank) all because they blew their cap load too early and it's costing them dearly.

This "bench the guy and trade him" talk is exactly what people are suggesting the Leafs do with Marner and it's exactly what Ballard did with Sittler. Got the Leafs nothing in return. At least doing it with Tavares gets you cap space if you do it nicely.
- Rare_Jewel

Totally, the years the best FA's they could land being Komisarek and Jason Blake were so much more fruitful.

Ridiculous argument. If he was that worried about "getting his year burned" he would ask for a trade not refuse one. Benching him or playing him deeper in the line up is not going to change his mind and is terrible optics.
- jribout

I'm not saying to bench Tavares on the 4th line. But taking away the captaincy, telling him he will not be offered a contract when his current one expires and that the Leafs would like him to accept a trade are three serious yet less aggressive gestures that may change his mind on his NMC.

Management said "there will be changes". What's a bigger change than changing the captain of the team?

If Tavares was, let's say, Stamkos, a repeat Cup winner, then yes, you could bite the bullet and say "this guy is staying because of legacy victories". But that's not the case here. Tavares was a mercenary that didn't get his job done.

Let's apply that logic.

Took 30 years to get a guy like Tavares to sign with the Leafs.

What did they win? Nothing.

Missing out on the next Tavares quite obviously doesn't mean (frank) all because they blew their cap load too early and it's costing them dearly.

This "bench the guy and trade him" talk is exactly what people are suggesting the Leafs do with Marner and it's exactly what Ballard did with Sittler. Got the Leafs nothing in return. At least doing it with Tavares gets you cap space if you do it nicely.
- Rare_Jewel

You do not appear to be someone that adheres to the concept of respect so your reponse is not very shocking. We have no idea what other players may have come here. It could also apply to NTC etc.

It's been well reported Tavares won't waive. He's nearing the end of his career, has a young family and is content playing it out where he is. In the event the team decided not to resign him, it wouldn't surprise me if he retired. Because all indications are he's not motivated by money or championships, he's motivated to be in Toronto.

The rumblings with Marner are the opposite, and for a guy who made sure he folded over his hometown team for every penny last time around it's not hard to see why. Working with the team and waiving is worth a lot of extra money to him and his camp.

Trading Marner is not a trade the team needs to "win", it's a trade that the team needs to come out of more balanced and better. You get a beneficial piece or two, some futures and cap space, and it really doesn't matter if the view is you've won or lost.
- joel878

Exactly! Cap space means you can go out in free agency and get what you need. They still have Brodie's and Samsonov's cap space to play with. Granted, Nylander and Matthews will eat up about $6M as their new contracts kick in, but getting younger and cheaper assets helps going forward. Tavares is just one more year and he can sign for under $5M or just leave, the next year. Dubas handcuffed this team with his negotiation tactics. It'll look better, once Marner is gone.

Tavares was the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL when the Leafs signed him so he didn't leave much money on the table.

If you're going to refer to the ridiculous offer the Sharks allegedly gave him, I'm sure the Sharks would just as eagerly give Marner 14 AAV for 7 years and Marner wouldn't lose a penny by anything the Leafs do.

Marner doesn't need 8 years the same way Matthews didn't need it either. It's a ridiculous notion that he panics and accepts a trade because he's worrying about 1 extra year when there's plenty of options to get all that money, if not more using the same strategy as Matthews or getting it from a Utah or San Jose team that doesn't care to overpay for a UFA.
- Rare_Jewel

No one is of the belief the insinuation is he panics, except you as the person who continuously creates their own narrative for everyone, and acts like they're the only person on earth who's smart enough to see they're right and everyone else is dumb.

For anyone else looking into this situation, it's just a calculated move on his part to maximize dollars in. That much is common sense for most.

Yup, 11 points in 9 games sure does suck
- Dozzer

4th place does suck, especially for Canada when the team is usually stacked, even without their A team.

4th place does suck, especially for Canada when the team is usually stacked, even without their A team.
- Rare_Jewel

lol your JT hatred is adorable

Totally, the years the best FA's they could land being Komisarek and Jason Blake were so much more fruitful.
- joel878

You do not appear to be someone that adheres to the concept of respect so your reponse is not very shocking. We have no idea what other players may have come here. It could also apply to NTC etc.
- jribout

If the Leafs drafted and developed the players they needed, they'd be a lot less dependent on signing useless UFAs.

Typical Leafs fan logic: We need big ticket UFAs or we can't win.

*Signs biggest UFA ever*

*Still loses*

Typical Leafs fan logic: Insist we need more big ticket UFAs.

At the end of the day, if the Leafs are built strong enough, you will attract the UFAs that want to win at all costs, regardless of what happened in the past.

4th place does suck, especially for Canada when the team is usually stacked, even without their A team.
- Rare_Jewel

Clearly not Tavares' doing and clearly not about the points he put up.

This might be the worst case of moving goalposts ever.

Yup, 11 points in 9 games sure does suck
- Dozzer

Scored the OT winner in the only series we won. His effort created Knies' OT winner this year.

Clearly not Tavares' doing and clearly not about the points he put up.

This might be the worst case of moving goalposts ever.
- joel878

He also scored the tying goal in last few minutes to send semi to OT but Oh well his fault because Jewel said so.

If the Leafs drafted and developed the players they needed, they'd be a lot less dependent on signing useless UFAs.

Typical Leafs fan logic: We need big ticket UFAs or we can't win.

*Signs biggest UFA ever*

*Still loses*

Typical Leafs fan logic: Insist we need more big ticket UFAs.

At the end of the day, if the Leafs are built strong enough, you will attract the UFAs that want to win at all costs, regardless of what happened in the past.
- Rare_Jewel

Yes, your legendary three year long tantrum about the leafs not properly developing Robbie Earl has not been forgotten.

Tavares has been nearly PPG since they brought him in prior to this year, pretty sure Joe Pavelski had a significant dip around this age and everyone declared him dead too.

We can prattle off the regular season accolades and the idea we pay Marner 11 million a year because he kills penalties, but when you reel off Tavares' statline it makes for a "useless UFA".

Got it.

Scored the OT winner in the only series we won. His effort created Knies' OT winner this year.
- jribout

Also the reason why Boston could dump the puck in on an angle in game 7 OT.

Of all the players the Leafs have, he's the furthest away from being what he takes up in cap space.

At his best, he did not deliver. As he continues to get worse, that will not improve.

He also scored the tying goal in last few minutes to send semi to OT but Oh well his fault because Jewel said so.
- jribout

There's a reason UG is the original AA.

Also the reason why Boston could dump the puck in on an angle in game 7 OT.

Of all the players the Leafs have, he's the furthest away from being what he takes up in cap space.

At his best, he did not deliver. As he continues to get worse, that will not improve.
- Rare_Jewel

It doesn't matter how the puck is dumped in if their 11 million dollar "elite winger" disappearing act doesn't go for a coast and let one of the best scorers in the world loose. The puck is just dumped to no one.

But we can call Marner good defensively and point out that he kills penalties and that all becomes moot I'm sure.

If the Leafs drafted and developed the players they needed, they'd be a lot less dependent on signing useless UFAs.

Typical Leafs fan logic: We need big ticket UFAs or we can't win.

*Signs biggest UFA ever*

*Still loses*

Typical Leafs fan logic: Insist we need more big ticket UFAs.

At the end of the day, if the Leafs are built strong enough, you will attract the UFAs that want to win at all costs, regardless of what happened in the past.
- Rare_Jewel

Never used the word big ticket once. But if your choice from the UFA pool is significantly reduced because of the perception of how your team treats players you are less likely to get a good deal.

Also makes it harder to make trades if player's do not really see Toronto as a preferrable destination.

This might be the worst case of moving goalposts ever.
- joel878

Pot...

Yes, your legendary three year long tantrum about the leafs not properly developing Robbie Earl has not been forgotten.
- joel878

...meet kettle.

Tavares has been nearly PPG since they brought him in prior to this year, pretty sure Joe Pavelski had a significant dip around this age and everyone declared him dead too.

Was Pavelski ever 10% or higher of his team's cap hit?

Tavares being a point per game player isn't what he was paid for. He was the 2nd highest paid player the day he signed and hasn't ever played up to it. Right now he's 10th in the league in cap hit. Is he even a top 30 player? Not a chance.

We can prattle off the regular season acolodaes and the idea we pay Marner 11 million a year because he kills penalties, but when you reel off Tavares' statline it makes for a "useless UFA".

Got it.

Acolodaes? Is that a Portuguese word for something?

Tavares got his chance in his prime. He didn't live up to it. Marner at least has his prime ahead of him and won't get you anything to replace his value because he can and will refuse to move his NMC.

It doesn't matter how the puck is dumped in if their 11 million dollar "elite winger" disappearing act doesn't go for a coast and let one of the best scorers in the world loose. The puck is just dumped to no one.

But we can call Marner good defensively and point out that he kills penalties and that all becomes moot I'm sure.
- joel878

Marner just hit the ice because Bertuzzi chased behind the net and jumped off. Please, at least watch the games.

Also the reason why Boston could dump the puck in on an angle in game 7 OT.

Of all the players the Leafs have, he's the furthest away from being what he takes up in cap space.

At his best, he did not deliver. As he continues to get worse, that will not improve.
- Rare_Jewel

No one is arguing this. He wants to be in Toronto and is likely going to ride out his current contract. Nothing Leafs can do to force him to move and any attempt is terrible optically

On July 1st, the Leafs pay his signing bonus of almost $10M for his final year. All that is left is $775,000 base salary. Teams that want to get off the cap floor would relish having that contract. A team like that Uah Utes might want to make such a deal, getting a face for their franchise and would overpay him to stay. They have young assets that the Leafs would covet, as does a team like Seattle.
- PrinceLH

Yes, agreed. This summer is the window. There is almost no window to trade Marner after this summer and rosters/caps are set. It's too big of a cap hit to move in season. It almost never happens.

Marner just hit the ice because Bertuzzi chased behind the net and jumped off. Please, at least watch the games.
- Rare_Jewel

And now you lose credibility. Marner was with Pasta from the other side of center to Leafs blueline. Then he stopped skating. That is clear as day.

Sigh… I truly wish covid didn’t happen so the cap wouldn’t have been froze and these salary debates wouldn’t need to occur.

Never used the word big ticket once. But if your choice from the UFA pool is significantly reduced because of the perception of how your team treats players you are less likely to get a good deal.
- jribout

It absolutely won't be, you know why? Because UFAs will look at Tavares and remember he was the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL and got 6 years to get the job done. Absolutely no UFA worth his salt looks at the Leafs and says "I refuse to sign there because they traded Tavares in year 7" after he did absolutely nothing to earn his cap hit.

Also makes it harder to make trades if player's do not really see Toronto as a preferrable destination.

Again, will not matter the second the Leafs are a contender. Players care about getting paid and getting a chance to win. If the Leafs cover those two bases, that fear is an ill-founded one.

And now you lose credibility. Marner was with Pasta from the other side of center to Leafs blueline. Then he stopped skating. That is clear as day.
- jribout

Pasta was going twice as fast because he looped and Marner wasn't responsible for that guy with the Leafs forechecking structure.

Read. Learn.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/...e-game-7-ot-goal-against/