Underrated.
- The Law

Agreed.

It's up there with Hot Shots and Major League.

- senstroll

nice avatar

Marner and Nylander were both battling injuries or medical issues of sorts in the playoffs - I think most people can agree with that - even the morons who were cracking jokes about Nylander having a headache and being a wussy for not playing (who clearly have never had or don't know anyone who suffers from migraines).

I see the issue as the same one I feel we have seen year over year as far as the playoff version of both players - the same versions showed up again and playoff Willy is much more valuable than playoff Marner because he can adapt his style of play and battle through that change much better than Marner. For me and all this years playoff series did was reinforce that since both were apparently dealing with injuries/medical issues.

If the excuse for Marner this year is that he was still battling his ankle issue what is the excuse for past playoff play and why does anyone think he would have been a different playoff performer this year if he wasn't supposedly still dealing with the ankle issue?

And to be clear I do not mean how many points did he rack up in meaningless games or what his total points were in the playoffs while playing with AM on line one - I mean how much did he do in the games that mattered, late in a series and elimination games? So for those who are going to reply with the "he has more points than player X, Y and Z on the Leafs" you can save your breath - I don't GAS at all to be honest because as series go on he shrinks over and over and over and I see no indication that this behavior will change - if you do please enlighten me as to what it is that you see that I'm missing.

I like Marner and I like Willy but I only see one of those 2 who have been able to change their game to suit playoff hockey consistently. So to me Marner IS a problem and it's partially because of the cap distribution (of which he is a part of the problem but not the only part of it for sure) so if he stays (which I think is better than 50/50 not only for next year but beyond) I just hope that when JT's contract is not 11M and the cap goes up they can get more players on the roster who can do the things Marner can't in the playoffs. Perhaps then they won't seek to rely on him to do those things and can just rely more on what he can do. IF he was to feel less pressure and be more able to play his softer style east/west game perhaps he could become more of a factor late in playoff series and elimination games.

And re: the bolded part - do you look at that list of players and think about how they play in playoff games and think Marner plays like them? I sure don't - he plays a MUCH softer game come playoffs than all of them & that is the exact problem with MM IMO.
- Cush29

I think there is definitely some recency bias in there. Marner just had unarguably his worst playoff outing of his career.

Nylander has 3 Game Winning Goals in his playoff career - in games 2, 4 and 6.
Marner has 3 Game Winning Goals in his playoff career - in games 1, 4 and 6.
Tavares has 1 Game Winning goal as a Leaf in his playoff career - in game 6.
Matthews has 6 Game Winning Goals 3 in game 2, and in each of games 3, 4 and 5.

We like to look at games 5-7 to show that Marner has been ineffective in those games - and I mean his 9 points in those games is a fair demonstration of it. Tavares has 10 points. Matthews has 13 and Nylander has 17.

This latest failure - the Leafs had 1 power play goal in 21 opportunities and Boston had 6 in 17 tries. Is that on Marner or a systemic failure by the coaching staff and failure on execution by the team? Why was Joel Edmundson the only Leaf breaking in the slot for two excellent setup passes by Marner? Where was the rest of the (frank)ing team?

Last year against Tampa they were 6/21 vs. 5/21 against; in Florida it was 2/11 for vs. 3/9 against. The year prior it was 4/28 for vs. 7/33 against. Even against Montreal in the year before they didn't win the special teams battle - both with 3 PP goals with 23 chances for the Leafs and 19 for the Habs. In fact other than round 1 against Tampa last year, the only other time the Leafs did win a special teams battle was against Columbus in not-the-playoffs. I can't blame Marner for an obvious short coming of this team and its style.

Do I think Marner was hurt and playing like he was hurt and shying away from contact? Yes I do. Do I think it affected his play with and without the puck? Also, yes I do. But I don't think that is typical of Marner per se - granted I think when things got vicious with Florida last year he became a lot more tentative, too. No offense but this whole goddamned team gets tentative when the temperature rises in a game. That is also not just on Marner. Getting rid of him will likely make things worse not better.

I still think they wait out 2024-25, let Tavares ride off into the sunset or bring him back at $4m or less and then use the increasing cap to finally correct the mistakes of the past. I don't think they fix this team this year and I don't think they do it by tossing Marner out without a complete change in philosophy for the team.

I think there is definitely some recency bias in there. Marner just had unarguably his worst playoff outing of his career.

Nylander has 3 Game Winning Goals in his playoff career - in games 2, 4 and 6.
Marner has 3 Game Winning Goals in his playoff career - in games 1, 4 and 6.
Tavares has 1 Game Winning goal as a Leaf in his playoff career - in game 6.
Matthews has 6 Game Winning Goals 3 in game 2, and in each of games 3, 4 and 5.

We like to look at games 5-7 to show that Marner has been ineffective in those games - and I mean his 9 points in those games is a fair demonstration of it. Tavares has 10 points. Matthews has 13 and Nylander has 17.

This latest failure - the Leafs had 1 power play goal in 21 opportunities and Boston had 6 in 17 tries. Is that on Marner or a systemic failure by the coaching staff and failure on execution by the team? Why was Joel Edmundson the only Leaf breaking in the slot for two excellent setup passes by Marner? Where was the rest of the (frank)ing team?

Last year against Tampa they were 6/21 vs. 5/21 against; in Florida it was 2/11 for vs. 3/9 against. The year prior it was 4/28 for vs. 7/33 against. Even against Montreal in the year before they didn't win the special teams battle - both with 3 PP goals with 23 chances for the Leafs and 19 for the Habs. In fact other than round 1 against Tampa last year, the only other time the Leafs did win a special teams battle was against Columbus in not-the-playoffs. I can't blame Marner for an obvious short coming of this team and its style.

Do I think Marner was hurt and playing like he was hurt and shying away from contact? Yes I do. Do I think it affected his play with and without the puck? Also, yes I do. But I don't think that is typical of Marner per se - granted I think when things got vicious with Florida last year he became a lot more tentative, too. No offense but this whole goddamned team gets tentative when the temperature rises in a game. That is also not just on Marner. Getting rid of him will likely make things worse not better.

I still think they wait out 2024-25, let Tavares ride off into the sunset or bring him back at $4m or less and then use the increasing cap to finally correct the mistakes of the past. I don't think they fix this team this year and I don't think they do it by tossing Marner out without a complete change in philosophy for the team.
- Monkeypunk

insert Pirates of The Caribbean 'Agreed' meme gif here

nice avatar
- Zezel

pretty much explains how I feel

pretty much explains how I feel
- senstroll

That movie rules lol

Ken, stop playing with yourself!

It IS God!
- Zezel

Think that's a quote from "Real Genius" where the young kid goes to college.

Great flick!

Agreed.

It's up there with Hot Shots and Major League.
- Nasty_Duck

how dare you fail to mention UHF

Think that's a quote from "Real Genius" where the young kid goes to college.

Great flick!
- underhill14

Oh yeah, it was Real Genius. I got my Val Kilmer movies mixed up.

I also like that one he did where Batman gets tuberculosis.

Oh yeah, it was Real Genius. I got my Val Kilmer movies mixed up.

I also like that one he did where Batman gets tuberculosis.
- Zezel

I hated this trade
But this year, its worked for the jays. Not sure how long it will though....also doesnt include last years stats. Its very cherry picked.

From the tweeter

"On the left: Daulton Varsho. On the right: Moreno + Gurriel.

164 AB 328 AB
10 HR 7 HR
20 XBH 24 XBH
20 BB 29 BB
.751 OPS .650 OPS
12 DRS 2 DRS
7 OAA 4 OAA
1.7 fWAR 1.5 fWAR"

In edit mode its separated by several spaces, not sure why it post like the above

https://x.com/BlueJays_Mu...UurUa5UcKaUVy5DDunyw&s=19

pretty much explains how I feel
- senstroll

I hated this trade
But this year, its worked for the jays. Not sure how long it will though....also doesnt include last years stats. Its very cherry picked.

From the tweeter

"On the left: Daulton Varsho. On the right: Moreno + Gurriel.

164 AB 328 AB
10 HR 7 HR
20 XBH 24 XBH
20 BB 29 BB
.751 OPS .650 OPS
12 DRS 2 DRS
7 OAA 4 OAA
1.7 fWAR 1.5 fWAR"

In edit mode its separated by several spaces, not sure why it post like the above

https://x.com/BlueJays_Mu...UurUa5UcKaUVy5DDunyw&s=19
- Fakepartofme

love the Varsh

Sucking hard you say

- Zezel

Gaaaah, my plums are running on fumes right now.

So hot, so hard, so ready for anything you can throw at me.

New mlb records

https://x.com/theScore/st...i2STSOx0GjvhwxXfm7Xg&s=19

New mlb records

https://x.com/theScore/st...i2STSOx0GjvhwxXfm7Xg&s=19
- Fakepartofme

Just wait until that loser Wayne Gretzskya has his WHA totals added! Eat your heart out...Wayne...oh poop.

I fell down a Twitter rabbit hole, but here's an interesting clip where Matt Damon explains why movies are so poop these days:

https://x.com/TheMonologi...tatus/1795505661591040064

Gaaaah, my plums are running on fumes right now.

So hot, so hard, so ready for anything you can throw at me.
- gravyface

New mlb records

https://x.com/theScore/st...i2STSOx0GjvhwxXfm7Xg&s=19
- Fakepartofme

The Toronto Blue Jays are among several teams showing interest in Colorado Rockies third baseman Ryan McMahon, reports MLB Network's Jon Morosi.

New mlb records

https://x.com/theScore/st...i2STSOx0GjvhwxXfm7Xg&s=19
- Fakepartofme

I find this weird.

The Negro leagues had talent but were not anywhere near as talented as the major leagues. Insofar as I'm aware they weren't even really organized. It's not really an apples:apples comparison.

It's a vain attempt to right the wrongs of the past - but people have to accept that sometimes the wrongs of the past are there to serve as an example of how to be right in the future. You can't correct that.

I think there is definitely some recency bias in there. Marner just had unarguably his worst playoff outing of his career.

Nylander has 3 Game Winning Goals in his playoff career - in games 2, 4 and 6.
Marner has 3 Game Winning Goals in his playoff career - in games 1, 4 and 6.
Tavares has 1 Game Winning goal as a Leaf in his playoff career - in game 6.
Matthews has 6 Game Winning Goals 3 in game 2, and in each of games 3, 4 and 5.

We like to look at games 5-7 to show that Marner has been ineffective in those games - and I mean his 9 points in those games is a fair demonstration of it. Tavares has 10 points. Matthews has 13 and Nylander has 17.

This latest failure - the Leafs had 1 power play goal in 21 opportunities and Boston had 6 in 17 tries. Is that on Marner or a systemic failure by the coaching staff and failure on execution by the team? Why was Joel Edmundson the only Leaf breaking in the slot for two excellent setup passes by Marner? Where was the rest of the (frank)ing team?

Last year against Tampa they were 6/21 vs. 5/21 against; in Florida it was 2/11 for vs. 3/9 against. The year prior it was 4/28 for vs. 7/33 against. Even against Montreal in the year before they didn't win the special teams battle - both with 3 PP goals with 23 chances for the Leafs and 19 for the Habs. In fact other than round 1 against Tampa last year, the only other time the Leafs did win a special teams battle was against Columbus in not-the-playoffs. I can't blame Marner for an obvious short coming of this team and its style.

Do I think Marner was hurt and playing like he was hurt and shying away from contact? Yes I do. Do I think it affected his play with and without the puck? Also, yes I do. But I don't think that is typical of Marner per se - granted I think when things got vicious with Florida last year he became a lot more tentative, too. No offense but this whole goddamned team gets tentative when the temperature rises in a game. That is also not just on Marner. Getting rid of him will likely make things worse not better.

I still think they wait out 2024-25, let Tavares ride off into the sunset or bring him back at $4m or less and then use the increasing cap to finally correct the mistakes of the past. I don't think they fix this team this year and I don't think they do it by tossing Marner out without a complete change in philosophy for the team.
- Monkeypunk

Recency bis - lol sure because Marner hasn't shrunk like a wilted flower in the past? Flipped a puck over the glass when he panicked late in a playoff game?

Sorry but it's not recently bias for me - I've watched every Leafs playoff game for 30 + years and this is my perspective of these specific players for their entire playoff careers with Toronto.

I know your a stats guy but can you honestly say when watching Marner and Willy in playoff games over the past few years you feel Willy is not much more impactful in playoff games? (even more so if you factor in who the linemates each player usually plays with). Stats don't tell the whole story, never have and never will - even more so in playoffs.

I can't/won't get behind the "Mitch is so fantastic, it's not his fault the other players didn't get open for him" theory - that is a bit too Artificial Adulation for me.

I'm not blaming Marner for the entire PP failure but he is on PP unit 1 (same as AM, Willy etc.) so he is part of the failure. I think it's more about systems, coaching and attitude of the players who need to have it driven into their heads BY THE COACH. They need to understand that more often than not playoff PP goals are greasy, ugly and low skill t and if they want PP time they need to do the things that create those goals. They don't do that they do the regular season PP thing which in playoffs amounts to passing the puck around the outside looking great while not scoring. Consequences for not doing that need to be real and in fairness to Keefe I think his hands were tied (or he felt they were) in this regard but I doubt (hope) Berube's aren't.

Let me close with this - have you watched a Leaf playoff game since this core was put together and thought after that game Marner was the biggest reason they won that game? I can't recall doing so but I do have recent memories for sure of both Matthews (not anywhere near 100%) and Nylander (also no way he was 100%) doing so and I have memories of both also doing it in the past.

That's the biggest difference to me.

I want to have those playoff memories where it's like "man Marner went full on stud mode and won them that game" but I just don't have any and I get the feeling that I may never sadly.

Anyhow it is what it is and I can respect the differing opinion and the fact we can have this adult conversation about it without anyone resorting to name calling or proactive insulting for anyone who has a differing opinion - there isn't enough of that here, nowhere even close in fact.

I find this weird.

The Negro leagues had talent but were not anywhere near as talented as the major leagues. Insofar as I'm aware they weren't even really organized. It's not really an apples:apples comparison.

It's a vain attempt to right the wrongs of the past - but people have to accept that sometimes the wrongs of the past are there to serve as an example of how to be right in the future. You can't correct that.
- Monkeypunk

Yes.

Also looking forward to the Pele scored 1000 "professional" goals thing again.

Yes.

Also looking forward to the Pele scored 1000 "professional" goals thing again.
- AdamFrench

Are we going to include Red Army stats, since they were actually professionals?

Are we going to include Red Army stats, since they were actually professionals?
- Atomic Wedgie

No. They are Russians and we hate them.

No. They are Russians and we hate them.
- AdamFrench