Location: Whenever, wherever, ON Joined: 06.27.2013
May 29 @ 1:56 PM ET
Recency bis - lol sure because Marner hasn't shrunk like a wilted flower in the past? Flipped a puck over the glass when he panicked late in a playoff game?
Sorry but it's not recently bias for me - I've watched every Leafs playoff game for 30 + years and this is my perspective of these specific players for their entire playoff careers with Toronto.
I know your a stats guy but can you honestly say when watching Marner and Willy in playoff games over the past few years you feel Willy is not much more impactful in playoff games? (even more so if you factor in who the linemates each player usually plays with). Stats don't tell the whole story, never have and never will - even more so in playoffs.
I can't/won't get behind the "Mitch is so fantastic, it's not his fault the other players didn't get open for him" theory - that is a bit too Artificial Adulation for me.
I'm not blaming Marner for the entire PP failure but he is on PP unit 1 (same as AM, Willy etc.) so he is part of the failure. I think it's more about systems, coaching and attitude of the players who need to have it driven into their heads BY THE COACH. They need to understand that more often than not playoff PP goals are greasy, ugly and low skill t and if they want PP time they need to do the things that create those goals. They don't do that they do the regular season PP thing which in playoffs amounts to passing the puck around the outside looking great while not scoring. Consequences for not doing that need to be real and in fairness to Keefe I think his hands were tied (or he felt they were) in this regard but I doubt (hope) Berube's aren't.
Let me close with this - have you watched a Leaf playoff game since this core was put together and thought after that game Marner was the biggest reason they won that game? I can't recall doing so but I do have recent memories for sure of both Matthews (not anywhere near 100%) and Nylander (also no way he was 100%) doing so and I have memories of both also doing it in the past.
That's the biggest difference to me.
I want to have those playoff memories where it's like "man Marner went full on stud mode and won them that game" but I just don't have any and I get the feeling that I may never sadly.
Anyhow it is what it is and I can respect the differing opinion and the fact we can have this adult conversation about it without anyone resorting to name calling or proactive insulting for anyone who has a differing opinion - there isn't enough of that here, nowhere even close in fact. - Cush29
Here's the thing about this type of evaluation - these are different players with different roles. Stepping aside from Marner, Nylander are so on - people talk about how all Matthews can do is score - but he is a great passer with exceptional vision, but that's not his role. His role is to shoot the puck and get the puck. Marner's role is to find a lane and distribute the puck. Nylander's role is to move the puck from A to B. This is a really overt simplification, but generally speaking Marner is looking for a shooter, Matthews is looking for a pass, Nylander carries the puck and has a good shot.
Based on their roles Nylander sort of rope-a-dopes sometimes. You watch him play and he's accomplishing next to nothing and then there's a lane for him and boom he scores.
As I said above both Nylander and Marner have 3 game winning goals each. Matthews has 6 and Tavares has 1.
Expanding on that - Marner and Matthews each have had 4 3 point playoff games; Nylander has had 2. Tavares has had 1. Marner has had 10 2 point playoff games, Nylander has had 9, Matthews has had 8 and JT has had 5.
So when you ask if Marner has won us playoff games? Yes, 3 point games will often do that for you (4-0 in Matthews' games, 3-1 in Marner's games, 2-0 in Nylander's games and 1-0 in JT's game).
I can't defend how Marner played against Florida or this year against Boston because he wasn't good in either series. He definitely took some lumps and it showed in how he played. I mean he still blocked 5 shots against Florida. Darling Nylander blocked 0. My point here is that don't let Nylander's recent season discolour the facts about him as a player - he's a game breaker and a puck transition wizard with an exceptional shot - but he also avoids contact and doesn't block shots. He's our Corbin Bernsen from Major League.
I love what he brings to the table, same as Marner, but I accept their faults along with respecting what they do.
Recency bis - lol sure because Marner hasn't shrunk like a wilted flower in the past? Flipped a puck over the glass when he panicked late in a playoff game?
Sorry but it's not recently bias for me - I've watched every Leafs playoff game for 30 + years and this is my perspective of these specific players for their entire playoff careers with Toronto.
I know your a stats guy but can you honestly say when watching Marner and Willy in playoff games over the past few years you feel Willy is not much more impactful in playoff games? (even more so if you factor in who the linemates each player usually plays with). Stats don't tell the whole story, never have and never will - even more so in playoffs.
I can't/won't get behind the "Mitch is so fantastic, it's not his fault the other players didn't get open for him" theory - that is a bit too Artificial Adulation for me.
I'm not blaming Marner for the entire PP failure but he is on PP unit 1 (same as AM, Willy etc.) so he is part of the failure. I think it's more about systems, coaching and attitude of the players who need to have it driven into their heads BY THE COACH. They need to understand that more often than not playoff PP goals are greasy, ugly and low skill t and if they want PP time they need to do the things that create those goals. They don't do that they do the regular season PP thing which in playoffs amounts to passing the puck around the outside looking great while not scoring. Consequences for not doing that need to be real and in fairness to Keefe I think his hands were tied (or he felt they were) in this regard but I doubt (hope) Berube's aren't.
Let me close with this - have you watched a Leaf playoff game since this core was put together and thought after that game Marner was the biggest reason they won that game? I can't recall doing so but I do have recent memories for sure of both Matthews (not anywhere near 100%) and Nylander (also no way he was 100%) doing so and I have memories of both also doing it in the past.
That's the biggest difference to me.
I want to have those playoff memories where it's like "man Marner went full on stud mode and won them that game" but I just don't have any and I get the feeling that I may never sadly.
Anyhow it is what it is and I can respect the differing opinion and the fact we can have this adult conversation about it without anyone resorting to name calling or proactive insulting for anyone who has a differing opinion - there isn't enough of that here, nowhere even close in fact. - Cush29
Not disputing the Marner hate. I'm saying you should be prepared for him to come back.
Location: Who Owzzzzz da' Chiefs?, ON Joined: 12.22.2014
May 29 @ 2:09 PM ET
Not disputing the Marner hate. I'm saying you should be prepared for him to come back. - Aaron_85
I fully anticipate he is coming back and I have no hate for any player who wears the glorious logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs (he said in his best blue koolaid drinking Zezel voice).
I want my playoff memories for Marner to be more positive than they are today / have been and despite propeller head Monkey's stats (that is meant as a compliment btw Monkey not a slam) that I half the time don't care about or more likely understand I just feel like Playoff Willy > Playoff Mitch.
Maybe that's because of how this team is made up, maybe it's Willy's gorgeous flowing mane of hair (get out of my head Zezel) I don't know but every playoff I feel like I watch and get more frustrated with Marner than anyone else - but trust me they all frustrate me to one degree or another.
Last thing (this is from Monkey's post) - Nylander with zero blocks is interesting but what's the context? How many PK minutes did Nylander play vs Marner? Again stats tell a story - you can usually use them in many ways to tell whatever story you seek to tell!
Oh and also Monkey when I say i want a player to win a game I don't mean the team won because they got 3, 4 or 10 points. I want them to have been the dominant, obvious reason they won. Matthew and Nylander both did that this year in the playoffs.
The Toronto Blue Jays are among several teams showing interest in Colorado Rockies third baseman Ryan McMahon, reports MLB Network's Jon Morosi. - mr.sir
I guess they have to decide if they are a buyer or a seller. I dont see anything that says this team should be a buyer. unless the cost is close to nothing.
-29 run diff. one of the worst offenses in the league, pitching is ranked near the bottom.
Location: The centre of the hockey universe Joined: 07.31.2006
May 29 @ 2:23 PM ET
I fully anticipate he is coming back and I have no hate for any player who wears the glorious logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs (he said in his best blue koolaid drinking Zezel voice).
I want my playoff memories for Marner to be more positive than they are today / have been and despite propeller head Monkey's stats (that is meant as a compliment btw Monkey not a slam) that I half the time don't care about or more likely understand I just feel like Playoff Willy > Playoff Mitch.
Maybe that's because of how this team is made up, maybe it's Willy's gorgeous flowing mane of hair (get out of my head Zezel) I don't know but every playoff I feel like I watch and get more frustrated with Marner than anyone else - but trust me they all frustrate me to one degree or another.
Last thing (this is from Monkey's post) - Nylander with zero blocks is interesting but what's the context? How many PK minutes did Nylander play vs Marner? Again stats tell a story - you can usually use them in many ways to tell whatever story you seek to tell!
Oh and also Monkey when I say i want a player to win a game I don't mean the team won because they got 3, 4 or 10 points. I want them to have been the dominant, obvious reason they won. Matthew and Nylander both did that this year in the playoffs.
- Cush29
I think there is 0.00% of Marner or JT being traded this off-season, so if I'm truly going to drink the Blue Koolaid with Zezzie (which I am going to do), I'm going to blindly believe that the Leafs have always had the talent, but they haven't had the right coach who forces them to do the hard stuff in the playoffs.
Berube is that guy.
You never give up on talent. You just find a way to have it emerge.
1st off what's with the immense amount of stupidity and derp in here the last few days FFS?
Nice to see people's Alt's not being banned and then that alt just trying to drive the same stupid (and wrong) point home over and over and over again using inaccurate or totally fabricated BS to try and prove their point. That mixed in with the regular garbage from the posters who need instructions on their shampoo bottles & a Canada vs US 'where to live' debate that of course ended up getting political.
Anyhow back to hockey and my reason for replying to Mr.Sir's post about Mike Yeo.
This version of Mike Yeo might be a good assistant coaching fit with Berube & would probably terrify some of the Leaf superstars lol.
- Cush29
Word is and odds are Yeo joining Dan Bylsma in Seattle. Likely getting the band back together there.
Location: Who Owzzzzz da' Chiefs?, ON Joined: 12.22.2014
May 29 @ 2:34 PM ET
Word is and odds are Yeo joining Dan Bylsma in Seattle. Likely getting the band back together there. - Roadrunner75
Unless he is hiring 2 new assistant coaches I would bet he hires Jessica Campbell over Yeo after going public and saying she would be considered if for no other reason than the backlash for not doing so.
I have no idea how good a coach she is but he may also get pressure from above to do something groundbreaking.
Location: Harvester of Sorrow, AB Joined: 06.29.2006
May 29 @ 2:36 PM ET
Unless he is hiring 2 new assistant coaches I would bet he hires Jessica Campbell over Yeo after going public and saying she would be considered if for no other reason than the backlash for not doing so.
I have no idea how good a coach she is but he may also get pressure from above to do something groundbreaking.
Location: Who Owzzzzz da' Chiefs?, ON Joined: 12.22.2014
May 29 @ 2:36 PM ET
I think there is 0.00% of Marner or JT being traded this off-season, so if I'm truly going to drink the Blue Koolaid with Zezzie (which I am going to do), I'm going to blindly believe that the Leafs have always had the talent, but they haven't had the right coach who forces them to do the hard stuff in the playoffs.
Berube is that guy.
You never give up on talent. You just find a way to have it emerge.
- Atomic Wedgie
I dig it and will follow suit if they run it back I'll still cheer for them all, rock my leaf pj's and put up all my Leaf stuff for playoffs hoping it's up for the summer but knowing its entirely possible it may only be up for a couple weeks.
Location: GalacticStone made avi, AB Joined: 07.04.2006
May 29 @ 2:44 PM ET
Seems like every thread keeps going around in circles. Run it back. Trade Marner. Trade JT. Repeat. They will both be back, so spend whatever cap we have to bolster the D or try to get a legit goalie. There is still opportunity to improve at the TDL to hopefully, (finally), have a deep playoff run. It's not ideal IMO, but our hands are basically tied and the only real option we have is to run it back for one more year. It's likely going to be a very similar year to this past one, but hopefully Tre has the ability to make some more impactful trades at the TDL.
Location: Who Owzzzzz da' Chiefs?, ON Joined: 12.22.2014
May 29 @ 2:50 PM ET
Seems like every thread keeps going around in circles. Run it back. Trade Marner. Trade JT. Repeat. They will both be back, so spend whatever cap we have to bolster the D or try to get a legit goalie. There is still opportunity to improve at the TDL to hopefully, (finally), have a deep playoff run. It's not ideal IMO, but our hands are basically tied and the only real option we have is to run it back for one more year. It's likely going to be a very similar year to this past one, but hopefully Tre has the ability to make some more impactful trades at the TDL. - Whipper
Yes the conversations are circular in here big time.
To me there is no need (or point when the money could be used in a better way like as the TDL as you note) to go blow all their nickels to get a top tier goalie this year.
They did not lose in the playoffs this year (yet again as in many other years) due to goaltending - it certainly was not the biggest reason they lost, special teams cost them the series vs Boston, specifically the Power Play.
I read an article saying Jones wants to come back - great lock him in as the cheap 3rd guy and spend a bit of coin to get a decent 1B. Brossiot seems like he could fit the bill.
Maybe the following year if it's needed when JT's money is off the books they can look for a big time goalie.
We shall see but the more I think about it the more I agree that JT and MM are likely both back to start the year and depending on how the contract negotiations go maybe one moves before the TDL but that's a big maybe.
Location: God Leafs Satan The Oneness, ON Joined: 02.28.2011
May 29 @ 2:57 PM ET
I think there is 0.00% of Marner or JT being traded this off-season, so if I'm truly going to drink the Blue Koolaid with Zezzie (which I am going to do), I'm going to blindly believe that the Leafs have always had the talent, but they haven't had the right coach who forces them to do the hard stuff in the playoffs.
Berube is that guy.
You never give up on talent. You just find a way to have it emerge.
- Atomic Wedgie
You and the Cushman are doing the right thing by jumping on the Kool Aid tanker early.
