So when you said, “I think I proved who is actually dumber than a box of rocks” you were referring to yourself?
- Dkos

Of course not. I think the thread and the conversation shows who that refers to. I did not call him any names.

Those that say that stats are misleading are those that can't grasp or refuse to look at simple data. Please explain how any of the stats I used in the conversation were misleading. Maybe if Tortorella wasn't such a Neanderthal and was willing to use analytical data. He would know and correct certain things sooner. Such as knowing that starting two defenseman in OT is not effective. Data would show how and where goals are scored from in the NHL and he wouldn't have had to contemplate during the Summer on how to adjust the Flyers offensive attack strategy.
As far as Frost is concerned. You have never been right about him. It's as if you're stuck in a time warp. Still harping on areas of his game that have long since been corrected. Slow to recognize. Another example of how you realize that the sun came up around dinner time.
- MJL

that is false cliff. take goalie save % as an example. just looking at the raw # doesnt tell the full story at all.

Go ahead, account for his offensive and defensive starts. Provide the data and we'll review it. I think it's your turn to provide some actual facts.

Analytics over time provide enough of a sample of data that it will expose any weaknesses in a player for players that have played a large enough amount of ice time As Frost has

https://hockey-graphs.com/tag/zone-starts/


"Zone starts are not that great of a metric. Although certain players do tend to be put out almost exclusively for offensive or defensive purposes, the reality is that for most players’ zone starts have a relatively small effect on a player’s performance."
- MJL

Absolutely it does , if you start in the ozone you have more opportunities for offensive stats,
Adding to your plus ➕️

If you generally take on the defensive starts, you have a higher chance of having minus ➖️

The reasoning frost isn't on the pk or trusted in defensive positions is because the team doesn't trust his abilities in that department. First to win the draw and second to get it out safely.

Rightfully so I would much rather put your offensive player in a chance to succeed but Giving him as much offensive starts as possible

How much do you see ovie on the pk or getting majority of his starts in the defensive starts

You don't and you be really silly to put him in those situations

Absolutely it does , if you start in the ozone you have more opportunities for offensive stats,
Adding to your plus ➕️

If you generally take on the defensive starts, you have a higher chance of having minus ➖️

The reasoning frost isn't on the pk or trusted in defensive positions is because the team doesn't trust his abilities in that department. First to win the draw and second to get it out safely.

Rightfully so I would much rather put your offensive player in a chance to succeed but Giving him as much offensive starts as possible

How much do you see ovie on the pk or getting majority of his starts in the defensive starts

You don't and you be really silly to put him in those situations
- SlNlSTER

odd since he was a good PK guy in juniors and the AHL.

think there is ore ot it than what you said.

Roster out for tonight?

odd since he was a good PK guy in juniors and the AHL.

think there is ore ot it than what you said.
- hello it's me 2050

Very true and coots was a offensive player in the Jr

Shows how much things can improve or learn new tools for there 🧰

Or how some players can't adapt to a higher level of play

In general

Very true and coots was a offensive player in the Jr

Shows how much things can improve or learn new tools for there 🧰

Or how some players can't adapt to a higher level of play

In general
- SlNlSTER

or how some are not given an opportunity.

Absolutely it does , if you start in the ozone you have more opportunities for offensive stats,
Adding to your plus ➕️

If you generally take on the defensive starts, you have a higher chance of having minus ➖️


- SlNlSTER

I just provided a link to an expert analytic website that states for most players, zone starts have little effect on a players performance. You've chosen to ignore it and again are showing ignorance. You're probably not aware that a relatively small number of a players shifts in a game are actually zone starts. 60-70% of a players shifts in a game are on the fly starts. With a large enough sample of data, any influence of zone starts is miniscule in the data to the point of not having much relevance

The reasoning frost isn't on the pk or trusted in defensive positions is because the team doesn't trust his abilities in that department. First to win the draw and second to get it out safely.


- SINISTER

That is simply an opinion, not supported by facts. A player does not have to play on the PK to assess his defensive play and play away from the puck and his defensive impact on the game. That a player does not play on the PK, does not indicate that a player is not a good defensive forward. Factual data has been supplied to you that shows that Frost is a solid defensive forward and contributes in other ways to the team than just points.

The only thing that bothers me about Torts benching Frost is that Frost supporters use this as an excuse.

I would have preferred he played every game so it would be more obvious that he’s just mediocre. I don’t hate the guy but to say Torts is the reason he’s mediocre is so backwards.

Anyone who has played has likely had a “Frost” on their team and they are infinitely frustrating to watch.

Of course not. I think the thread and the conversation shows who that refers to. I did not call him any names.
- MJL

Whatever you say, (frank)face

[quote=MJL]I just provided a link to an expert analytic website that states for most players, zone starts have little effect on a players performance. You've chosen to ignore it and again are showing ignorance. You're probably not aware that a relatively small number of a players shifts in a game are actually zone starts. 60-70% of a players shifts in a game are on the fly starts. With a large enough sample of data, any influence of zone starts is miniscule in the data to the point of not having much relevance




That is simply an opinion, not supported by facts. A player does not have to play on the PK to assess his defensive play and play away from the puck and his defensive impact on the game. That a player does not play on the PK, does not indicate that a player is not a good defensive forward. Factual data has been supplied to you that shows that Frost is a solid defensive forward and contributes in other ways to the team than just

It absolutely does ozone starts mean a lot, especially if it's a 1 goal game. In a late game

It matters when a team pulls the goalie, does a team pull a goalie when in there own zone absolutely not.

This I'll disagree with you till the end of time

The only thing that bothers me about Torts benching Frost is that Frost supporters use this as an excuse.

I would have preferred he played every game so it would be more obvious that he’s just mediocre. I don’t hate the guy but to say Torts is the reason he’s mediocre is so backwards.

Anyone who has played has likely had a “Frost” on their team and they are infinitely frustrating to watch.
- anti-lame

I said it before and I’ll say it again. On Sunday I felt like Morgan Frost tried to be “the guy” on a line with Tippett and Michkov, leaving Michkov not getting as many touches as I would have liked to have seen. On Thursday I got what I wanted. Michkov was more involved and we got to see more of what he’s capable of.

I’m sorry if this upsets anyone but I want the stud on the line driving play. Michkov is a stud, Frost isn’t. That’s just how it is.

It absolutely does ozone starts mean a lot, especially if it's a 1 goal game. In a late game

It matters when a team pulls the goalie, does a team pull a goalie when in there own zone absolutely not.

This I'll disagree with you till the end of time
- SlNlSTER

You're showing a lack of understanding of analytics and statistical data. The comment is not that an individual specific play doesn't matter to a team. It does. A mistake on a single play can cost a team a game. You're confusing that with looking at a player impact on the game. A player's overall impact is judged with a large sample of data. Not a small individual sample of data. Every player makes mistakes. What is their impact over a full season or close to a full season of games and a large set of data points where you can form a statistical judgement.

You've made the comment that Frost hurts the team. Statistical data shows that you are wrong. Which is not the same as saying that Frost hasn't made any mistakes during the course of a season that have hurt the team. That is true of every player.
When we look at Frost's Goals For data, his Goals Against data when he is on the ice. We see that Frost is a positive player for the Flyers. Which is not the same as saying that he doesn't need to improve as a player.

In summation, what I have proven with factual data is that Frost is a solid all around player with the largest area of needing improvement, is to increase consistency in putting up points if he is going to be counted on a viable 2C option for the team moving forward.

I have no issue with legitimate criticism of Frost or any player for that matter. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. You've made repeated claims of opinion and have not supported by facts. Even basically saying that Frost plays center, so his points don't count. LOL.

I'm simply trying not to change your opinion, I don't really care about that because its all factually wrong. But to simply educate you on the facts so hopefully you may reconsider and use facts and data to come to an educated conclusion.

You're showing a lack of understanding of analytics and statistical data. The comment is not that an individual specific play doesn't matter to a team. It does. A mistake on a single play can cost a team a game. You're confusing that with looking at a player impact on the game. A player's overall impact is judged with a large sample of data. Not a small individual sample of data. Every player makes mistakes. What is their impact over a full season or close to a full season of games and a large set of data points where you can form a statistical judgement.

You've made the comment that Frost hurts the team. Statistical data shows that you are wrong. Which is not the same as saying that Frost hasn't made any mistakes during the course of a season that have hurt the team. That is true of every player.
When we look at Frost's Goals For data, his Goals Against data when he is on the ice. We see that Frost is a positive player for the Flyers. Which is not the same as saying that he doesn't need to improve as a player.

In summation, what I have proven with factual data is that Frost is a solid all around player with the largest area of needing improvement, is to increase consistency in putting up points if he is going to be counted on a viable 2C option for the team moving forward.

I have no issue with legitimate criticism of Frost or any player for that matter. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. You've made repeated claims of opinion and have not supported by facts. Even basically saying that Frost plays center, so his points don't count. LOL.

I'm simply trying not to change your opinion, I don't really care about that because its all factually wrong. But to simply educate you on the facts so hopefully you may reconsider and use facts and data to come to an educated conclusion.
- MJL

Obviously you don't understand hockey unless it's on a sheet.

So tell me why Frost is not the Flyers top pk man
If the numbers are saying I'm wrong

Obviously you don't understand hockey unless it's on a sheet.

So tell me why Frost is not the Flyers top pk man
If the numbers are saying I'm wrong
- SlNlSTER

You're telling someone they don't understand hockey while trying to use that Frost doesn't play on the PK to support your opinion. Which it doesn't. As if a player can't be a solid player and reliable defensively if he doesn't play on the PK. The overwhelming majority of players don't play on the PK. You're making a fool of yourself. If that is all you have, we're done here.

You're telling someone they don't understand hockey while trying to use that Frost doesn't play on the PK to support your opinion. Which it doesn't. As if a player can't be a solid player and reliable defensively if he doesn't play on the PK. The overwhelming majority of players don't play on the PK. You're making a fool of yourself. If that is all you have, we're done here.
- MJL

Not at all if you are saying his numbers support your claims, then why is he not on the pk , if they are best among his peers then it be malpractice not to put him on the pk, better numbers the pk have the more chance the team gets a W

Maybe because in practice they tried it and he look like a fish out of water, or maybe he wasn't as effective

See you are trying to use statistics to win a discussion, but you a failing to realize numbers /stats don't tell the big picture.

Is number ands stats tell all about a particular player then why do scouts attend games, all they need todo is look at a spread sheet

This are the things you grow up learning about hockey 🏒 specially in Canada when it is its number 1 sport. ( unfortunately for me it's all Toronto leafs all the time yuk)

Ita all canadiens talk about on sports talk, with scouts former coaches and coaches waiting for there next opportunity.

In America it's not even top 5 sport talk about.

So you wouldn't have the opportunity as much to hear opinions you respect 💯.

Now I could say your stupid, or discrediting your way of thinking, but I do think you are very knowledgeable and take the time to analyze what you are reading (which is very hard to do)

But you are forgetting the eye test part

Not at all if you are saying his numbers support your claims, then why is he not on the pk , if they are best among his peers then it be malpractice not to put him on the pk, better numbers the pk have the more chance the team gets a W

Maybe because in practice they tried it and he look like a fish out of water, or maybe he wasn't as effective

See you are trying to use statistics to win a discussion, but you a failing to realize numbers /stats don't tell the big picture.

Is number ands stats tell all about a particular player then why do scouts attend games, all they need todo is look at a spread sheet

This are the things you grow up learning about hockey 🏒 specially in Canada when it is its number 1 sport. ( unfortunately for me it's all Toronto leafs all the time yuk)

Ita all canadiens talk about on sports talk, with scouts former coaches and coaches waiting for there next opportunity.

In America it's not even top 5 sport talk about.

So you wouldn't have the opportunity as much to hear opinions you respect 💯.

Now I could say your stupid, or discrediting your way of thinking, but I do think you are very knowledgeable and take the time to analyze what you are reading (which is very hard to do)

But you are forgetting the eye test part
- SlNlSTER

Your comments are foolish. I'm not at all forgetting the eye test part. The facts that I've supplied to you prove that what I'm seeing with my eyes is accurate.
The facts that I've supplied show that what you think you're seeing with your eyes, is not accurate.

all you can offer is what ifs. What if he was tried on the PK in practice as an example. You tried to claim that points scored off of a face off, without offering any factual support that it was even the case, somehow diminished plays Frost has made.

You keep trying to make silly arguments. For example, I say that player A is a good player and you say that player A is a bad player. Well how do you support that opinion? You use available facts.

The Canadian/American thing doesn't have anything to do with it.

I've proven that every observation you've made on Frost, with the exception of one that we both agree on, is wrong.

I've been very patient with you and given you way more of my time than you deserve.

Your comments are foolish. I'm not at all forgetting the eye test part. The facts that I've supplied to you prove that what I'm seeing with my eyes is accurate.
The facts that I've supplied show that what you think you're seeing with your eyes, is not accurate.

all you can offer is what ifs. What if he was tried on the PK in practice as an example. You tried to claim that points scored off of a face off, without offering any factual support that it was even the case, somehow diminished plays Frost has made.

You keep trying to make silly arguments. For example, I say that player A is a good player and you say that player A is a bad player. Well how do you support that opinion? You use available facts.

The Canadian/American thing doesn't have anything to do with it.

I've proven that every observation you've made on Frost, with the exception of one that we both agree on, is wrong.

I've been very patient with you and given you way more of my time than you deserve.
- MJL

Because a center can simply win an offensive zone draw and then do nothing in the play and get a point allows them to get points more easily than winger. Or even win it in any part of the ice and they can get a point.

As a result, isn't it easier for a center to get points than a winger or D-man

Because a center can simply win an offensive zone draw and then do nothing in the play and get a point allows them to get points more easily than winger. Or even win it in any part of the ice and they can get a point.

As a result, isn't it easier for a center to get points than a winger or D-man
- SlNlSTER

Prove me wrong, take a poll and ask i guarantee I'll win

Prove I'm wrong, take a poll and ask, i guarantee I'll win
- SlNlSTER

Because a center can simply win an offensive zone draw and then do nothing in the play and get a point allows them to get points more easily than winger. Or even win it in any part of the ice and they can get a point.

As a result, isn't it easier for a center to get points than a winger or D-man
- SlNlSTER

More foolishness. You're stating that a center can win a offensive zone faceoff and do NOTHING and get a point. Can a center make a pass to a player and then do NOTHING and get a point? LOL. Faceoffs are statistically a small part of the game and as I stated to you earlier and this shows your inability to learn. Zone starts, with faceoffs, only account for about 30% of a player's shifts in a game.

Let me ask you a couple of questions involving not hockey knowledge but simple common sense. When a center wins a faceoff on a play that results in a goal. Who is he winning the faceoff to? Someone scores the goal. Isn't that a winger or a defenseman? A center gets a point for winning the draw and whoever touched the puck after or scored the goal, gets a point.

Now you're showing not only a lack of hockey knowledge but also a lack of common sense

Prove me wrong, take a poll and ask i guarantee I'll win
- SlNlSTER

Take a poll of who? You're being a fool.

Obviously you don't understand hockey unless it's on a sheet.

- SlNlSTER

bingo.

it's why he clings so tightly to these fancy stats. it's his only in to a sport he never experienced and doesn't fully understand.