Isn't more points than giveaways a positive thing? Honestly if he only had 29 giveaways all year that is pretty amazing.
- mickel25

Yes but not when it's so close

If he had say 70s plus and 29 that would be great

Since you like stats: https://www.reddit.com/r/Flyers/s/vQpUtPQIvc

"While Frost's metrics are good, they are similar or worse than Sean Couturier and Noah Cates. While Frost has become a well rounded and better defensive forward he is still not at the level of those two centers. While Cates spent some time moving back to the wing I think it would be a bit foolish to move someone who was one of the best defensive centers in the league as a rookie last year permanently to the wing. Also, while Frost has similar metrics to Coots and Cates, those two players take much tougher defensive assignments. Not only do they get other teams top offensive producers, they take the odd shift with the 4th line, and usually a much larger share of defensive zone draws. Coots has an Offensive zone start percentage of 43.9% this year, while Cates is significantly higher this season (over 56%), last season he was also around 43%. This season Frost's OZS% is 69.8%, he is ranked 24th in the league in on the fly OZS% and 11th in faceoff OZS% making him one of the most sheltered players in the league at 5v5. This doesn't invalidate Frost's good defensive metrics, there are a number of players who get even more sheltered minutes who deliver much worse results, but it does mean that Coots and Cates have an edge even when their advanced numbers are comparable to Frost."
- anti-lame

are you using a random redditor as your backup? LOL

The same redditor that has TF moving to center!

Yes, he did. How does that support your opinion that Frost is dumb as a box of rocks?
- MJL

Tip had 25 giveaways and 53 points

Yes but not when it's so close

If he had say 70s plus and 29 that would be great
- SlNlSTER

Do I now need to list pretty good players who's giveaway totals are close to their point totals?

Tip had 25 giveaways and 53 points
- SlNlSTER

Yes, how does that support your opinion that Frost is dumb as a box of rocks?

Tip had 25 giveaways and 53 points
- SlNlSTER

Sounds like they should put those two fellas together more.

Got anything that isn't almost a year old?

Cates was a 3rd/4th line winger last season. Try and keep up, bud.
- Feanor

We were having these conversations last year too. What difference does that make?

We were having these conversations last year too. What difference does that make?
- anti-lame

For one Cates is clearly not a center anymore.

Yes, how does that support your opinion that Frost is dumb as a box of rocks?
- MJL

Because you figured as more nhl experience he wouldn't try the same things that have a low chance of success, and tell me is 41 points a good second line center

Don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just enjoying a civil disagreement. I genuinely like your view points

For one Cates is clearly not a center anymore.
- mickel25

And when he was he was outplaying Frost and getting minor selke attention

And when he was he was outplaying Frost and getting minor selke attention
- anti-lame

The selke attention is a nice feather in Cates' hat for sure. The debate on Cates being a better center than Frost is clearly closed at this point though. Cates is a 4th line winger and Frost takes a regular shift at 2nd line center.

He consistently makes low percentage plays that don’t work. seems to turn over the puck every time he tries something cute

Last night he was coming into the zone with Tippett (who ended up with the puck by pure luck). Rather than taking a shot or making a pass he tried to dangle through 2 defenseman who had a good gap on him. Puck fumbles off his stick and ends up with Tippett.

He received a pass and had 2 plays he could have made above the hash marks and tries this cute behind the back pass that he turned over. Just a dumb play there when there were better options. He does this all the time.
- anti-lame

Not that I feel like Frost had a bad game but last night wasn’t as strong as Sunday’s game for him. Actually, last night for the Frost, Tippett, Michkov line went the way I wanted it to go, where Michkov was carrying most of the mail. Frost did make a couple of mistakes that led to turnovers and maybe he was trying to do too much but I didn’t think he was terrible.

In my opinion, Michkov is the stud and Frost isn’t. So the stud needs to drive play. Sorry if this upsets anyone….

The selke attention is a nice feather in Cates' hat for sure. The debate on Cates being a better center than Frost is clearly closed at this point though. Cates is a 4th line winger and Frost takes a regular shift at 2nd line center.
- mickel25

The point of the post though is that certain analytics don’t show the whole picture in context.

Not that I feel like Frost had a bad game but last night wasn’t as strong as Sunday’s game for him. Actually, last night for the Frost, Tippett, Michkov line went the way I wanted it to go, where Michkov was carrying most of the mail. Frost did make a couple of mistakes that led to turnovers and maybe he was trying to do too much but I didn’t think he terrible.

In my opinion, Michkov is the stud and Frost isn’t. So the stud needs to drive play. Sorry if this upsets anyone….
- roenick97

That's a very good observation 👍

I'm sure there are some turnovers. All playmakers have turnovers. So here are some facts for you.

Last season, in a 71 game sample, Frost made giveaways at a rate of 1.54 for GvA/60

In comparison, below are the rates for some more prominent players
David Pasternak 3.59
Leon Draisaitl 3.29
Nikita Kucherov 3.28
Jack Hughes 3.27
Connor McDavid 3.10

As far as your comment about Frost thinking that he is better than he is. That's just rhetoric
- MJL

if he was one of the best in the game no one would give a schitt

Got anything that isn't almost a year old?

Cates was a 3rd/4th line winger last season. Try and keep up, bud.
- Feanor

looks like they are using cates a center this camp and pre-season

if he was one of the best in the game no one would give a schitt
- hello it's me 2050

Exactly 💯

love when frostsky gets critiqued. out comes the FFC ready to critique another flyer in his defense.

Because you figured as more nhl experience he wouldn't try the same things that have a low chance of success, and tell me is 41 points a good second line center

Don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm just enjoying a civil disagreement. I genuinely like your view points
- SlNlSTER

You're changing the conversation now. Every player, especially offensive players are going to have some bad turnovers. I've shown with facts that Frost overall takes pretty good care of the puck. Not that he isn't mistake free. Not even the best players in the league are. You haven't offered any evidence to support your opinion that Frost is as dumb as a box of rocks.
Now if you want to say that Frost needs to put up points at a higher rate and score more consistently. I share that and that is a legit criticism. The reality is that Frost is a responsible player with the puck and is responsible defensively and plays a solid all around game. He just needs to increase his scoring to be a viable 2C candidate moving forward.

Exactly 💯
- SlNlSTER

i don't think frostsky is turnover machine or anything like that. he should never ever be mentioned with those players, however.

The selke attention is a nice feather in Cates' hat for sure. The debate on Cates being a better center than Frost is clearly closed at this point though. Cates is a 4th line winger and Frost takes a regular shift at 2nd line center.
- mickel25

With the exception of the short stint at the end of one season when Frost was still breaking in. Cates has not outplayed Frost.

Exactly 💯
- SlNlSTER

Don't get yourself caught up in dumb rhetoric. Use facts not false narratives.

You're changing the conversation now. Every player, especially offensive players are going to have some bad turnovers. I've shown with facts that Frost overall takes pretty good care of the puck. Not that he isn't mistake free. Not even the best players in the league are. You haven't offered any evidence to support your opinion that Frost is as dumb as a box of rocks.
Now if you want to say that Frost needs to put up points at a higher rate and score more consistently. I share that and that is a legit criticism. The reality is that Frost is a responsible player with the puck and is responsible defensively and plays a solid all around game. He just needs to increase his scoring to be a viable 2C candidate moving forward.
- MJL

Not really changing topics was part of our conversation, because I said Jett might be better then frost.

And yes lots of top players in the league have turnovers.

But frost is not top in the league, he is not even top 100.

If he gonna make mistakes then he better produce way more then his downfall

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839733394902577467

https://x.com/i/web/status/1839733394902577467
- hello it's me 2050

no one will want Attard