Speed is great, but speed only gets you Andreas Athanaseou
- LAHawk

Yo LA, have you seen Philly and their retool this yr? Caught 2 periods @ EDM last night and gotta say it's must see tv. Michkov was born to play for Torts!!!

After a period I thought this guy has a bunch of Marchand in him. I relentless pest. He's always got his head under the opponents arm pit, in every scrum, grabbing guys by the neck from behind, yappin and he's smallish........ And, he scored the first 2 goals for Philly as they got outa EDM with a 4-3 OT loss.

It's a classic Torts team. Lotta energy, lotta in your face, lotta blocked shots. 2 fights I saw, one where skill guy Farabee accepted Perry's invite off the face off and did ok.... Some old school Torts hockey

Jones is a guy who has never reached his ceiling. Besides his cap hit it's frustrating to see a player with his size,/skating have average offense with so many plays end on his stick.

In his defense the team has sucked out loud since he got here and this is the first yr we see him with some legit NHLers. ... As some have said in 3-4 yrs when it's all out win time he'll be helpful in the 2nd pairing. It'll probably play out that way.
- Mr Ricochet

Based on what? Maybe this was his ceiling. Adam Boqvist was said to have Karlsson top end. Despite all the injuries, I don't think his ceiling was ever that high.

Based on what? Maybe this was his ceiling. Adam Boqvist was said to have Karlsson top end. Despite all the injuries, I don't think his ceiling was ever that high.
- Chunk

Based on his Pops playing NBA ball, his size, skating and skill shown playing 2 yrs for the NTDP and the WJC. He was a blueblood many thought would go 1st overall but the cameras zoomed in on him as he fell to 4th IIRC.

Kid was thought to be a top 1/2 NHL 1st pairing Dman and he never has been, ie never reached his ceiling....... Watch the kid skate at his size and look at his career numbers. You think he reached his ceiling??.... IMO he has just average hockey IQ and that's what was missed that keeps him from being a consistent every night 1st pairing, 1st PP, workhorse, positive possession, 60 pt NHL Dman.

Reinhorn sellin the Sox to Death Stare Dave Stewart???? https://www.msn.com/en-us...d78bea8ff80cee41288&ei=19

Reinhorn sellin the Sox to Death Stare Dave Stewart???? https://www.msn.com/en-us...d78bea8ff80cee41288&ei=19
- Mr Ricochet

It would make Chicago a one baseball team city.

Based on his Pops playing NBA ball, his size, skating and skill shown playing 2 yrs for the NTDP and the WJC. He was a blueblood many thought would go 1st overall but the cameras zoomed in on him as he fell to 4th IIRC.

Kid was thought to be a top 1/2 NHL 1st pairing Dman and he never has been, ie never reached his ceiling....... Watch the kid skate at his size and look at his career numbers. You think he reached his ceiling??.... IMO he has just average hockey IQ and that's what was missed that keeps him from being a consistent every night 1st pairing, 1st PP, workhorse, positive possession, 60 pt NHL Dman.
- Mr Ricochet

Well yeah, but the point I'm trying to make is that people are making these projections on kids who are 17-18-19 years old. How accurate are these projections? My point was maybe his real ceiling is exactly what it is.

Aside from the 60 point thing (which obviously, is partly determined by teammates), I think he's met the rest of your criteria, no?

It would make Chicago a one baseball team city.

- rpeters01

Probably not a bad idea.

That was me who posted that the Hogs skated GR outa the building with the caveat I only saw one period. ..It was the first time I've seen KD's draft picks play an AHL game and it did not take a scout's eye to see the speed.

KD has drafted speed and now we get to see it playing pro. The NHL roster each yr for 3-4 yrs will increase in guys who play and or skate fast as they graduate from the AHL. ..... That's the brand KD wants to play and I was glad to see them play that game at RKF..
- Mr Ricochet

And if the speed merchants are better than AA insofar as finishing ability, then the speed + compete level will really stand out. There could be four strong lines. Remembering Cup teams 2010 and 2013 there were players in the playoffs who were effective as role players. Then too we can look to be a puck possession team. However a young defense may not quite be capable. Eventually though the blueline crew may be fairly capable. After a couple of years with a boatload of young talent then KD is likely looking to find a veteran presence maybe on a forward line and one on defense. It will surely be interesting how the roster shapes up for the next five plus seasons

Well yeah, but the point I'm trying to make is that people are making these projections on kids who are 17-18-19 years old. How accurate are these projections? My point was maybe his real ceiling is exactly what it is.

Aside from the 60 point thing (which obviously, is partly determined by teammates), I think he's met the rest of your criteria, no?
- Chunk

No doubt he's matured and if things go to plan he'll be playing with some top end talent in a few yrs. ..... Maybe he hasn't reached his "projected" ceiling but still can??

Right shot, good size, eats all the heavy minutes, skates 24-25 minutes a game, good size and skating, some offense, rarely injured. .... To my eye he checks a lotta boxes and there's room on most clubs for a guy like Jones but he's be tied to his too high of salary when he's evaluated and it can skew how people see him.

You're organIzation better be able to evaluate 17-18 yr olds cuz that's where the rubber hits the road for an organIzation. Hard to win yr in and yr out without players who can come thru the system, developed properly and contribute in the NHL. ..

Buffalo has 2 overall #1’s, a #4, #29. And #32 on defense, and they suck again defensively

Buffalo has 2 overall #1’s, a #4, #29. And #32 on defense, and they suck again defensively
- LAHawk

If the Buffalo Sabres back end remains the same for two more seasons, how much better is this group due to experience gained? The Sabres have a lot of youth everywhere and even with a ciachung change, this team hasn’t really found its identity

How much better and how soon both the defense and the team overall success? I say the GM needs to pivot and carefully take advantage of all the superlative young talent. Molding a better team may mean some young pieces in the current lineup need to develop and or be traded And is Lindy Ruff the right coach?

Buffalo has 2 overall #1’s, a #4, #29. And #32 on defense, and they suck again defensively
- LAHawk

I don’t know if you, Mr Richochet and anyone else on this board has the opportunity to watch Mason Lohrei, Boston Bruins

Lohrei is a promising dman who is playing a lot which says a lot for a bruins team who definitely manages time carefully for younger players. At each step in his development- which the last few have been two years each level - Lohrei has impressed. Tracking him from the USHS -Prep, next USHL, then Ohio State NCAA, and now went only five GP AHL before ascending to the NHL with 41gp last season

A mobile defensive dman perhaps he looks better than all those Buffalo young dmen

This season off the top of my head Casey NJ and the collegiate kid for Montreal off to good start. And Anaheim has Mintyukov who was pretty good then was injured last season

Have to wonder if the support, structure of team defense + the developmental AHL experience benefits our future kiddie blueline corp more than the Sabre’s thrusting their kids directly into the rigors of the NHL


And how has Clarke looked this season for the LA Kings who are minus Dougherty

I know he's a bit of a lightning rod around here, but can we all agree that Seth Jones has started out this year being what is expected/needed from him? Good defensively and driving offense from the back end? No one else is really able to do so aside from Kaiser a little bit and Vlasic is starting to pepper the net a bit more now.
- Chunk

Eh. Not really. He's not a dominant player and for 9.5 on the blue line you should either be a black hole or very dangerous going forward and a threat on the power play.

He's just kinda sorta mostly fine at everything.

Reinhorn sellin the Sox to Death Stare Dave Stewart???? https://www.msn.com/en-us...d78bea8ff80cee41288&ei=19
- Mr Ricochet

Good, then I can finally give up on baseball

No doubt he's matured and if things go to plan he'll be playing with some top end talent in a few yrs. ..... Maybe he hasn't reached his "projected" ceiling but still can??

Right shot, good size, eats all the heavy minutes, skates 24-25 minutes a game, good size and skating, some offense, rarely injured. .... To my eye he checks a lotta boxes and there's room on most clubs for a guy like Jones but he's be tied to his too high of salary when he's evaluated and it can skew how people see him.

You're organIzation better be able to evaluate 17-18 yr olds cuz that's where the rubber hits the road for an organIzation. Hard to win yr in and yr out without players who can come thru the system, developed properly and contribute in the NHL.
- Mr Ricochet

Unfortunately in a cap league the performance to salary ratio is going to determine value which is important.

I don't think that Jones has a lot to offer on a very good team at that cap hit. He's a less bad Darnell Nurse. Certainly not at the level of a Keith, Doughty, Makar, Fox, Heiskanan, Jossi or similar who can dramatically change the dynamic of a game. It's reasonable to criticize the deal and the player's performance until they are no longer with the team or live up to the billing.

This is a good summary of the value of the trade at the time.

https://jfresh.substack.c...down-the-seth-jones-trade

This is even more in-depth

https://jfresh.substack.c...seth-jones-actually-elite

He is not a good skater laterally or backwards. As he slows down and ages, this deficiency is going to become very problematic, especially since his hockey sense is somewhere between mediocre and average. Same with him skating the puck out. Going to be an issue when he can't rely on his feet as much anymore. I don't think he'll reinvent himself like Jay Boewmeester.

Best case scenario is Levshunov and Rinzel are so damn good on the right side that he's relegated to 3rd pairing minutes and demands a trade to anywhere.

If the Buffalo Sabres back end remains the same for two more seasons, how much better is this group due to experience gained? The Sabres have a lot of youth everywhere and even with a ciachung change, this team hasn’t really found its identity

How much better and how soon both the defense and the team overall success? I say the GM needs to pivot and carefully take advantage of all the superlative young talent. Molding a better team may mean some young pieces in the current lineup need to develop and or be traded And is Lindy Ruff the right coach?
- jhawk59

Maybe those guys just aren't that good?

Also Ruff teams are notorious for not playing D.

Maybe those guys just aren't that good?

Also Ruff teams are notorious for not playing D.
- fattybeef

A tough critique right now but the Buffalo blueline crew is so young. A lot of skill and high end talent …..sure…..see how well they learn to play defense and whether the team defense is any good

Queeneville destination would be a good development for the youthful group in snow packed Buffalo land

I realize that Q is not normally going with youth but he would have to grow this kiddie group with a system and accountability

Maybe those guys just aren't that good?

Also Ruff teams are notorious for not playing D.
- fattybeef

I do not know how to do red font. You failed to see the sarcasm in my post.

I do not know how to do red font. You failed to see the sarcasm in my post.
- LAHawk

I didn't see it either. Could be us or maybe you need to brush up on your sarcasm. Darth still has some openings for his Fall course.

I didn't see it either. Could be us or maybe you need to brush up on your sarcasm. Darth still has some openings for his Fall course.
- HawkintheD

Darth is the elite sarcasm post contributor
Would Don Cherry be the Archie Bunker loudmouth
Any new sarcasm we could just reply, “Snickers.”

Eh. Not really. He's not a dominant player and for 9.5 on the blue line you should either be a black hole or very dangerous going forward and a threat on the power play.

He's just kinda sorta mostly fine at everything.
- fattybeef

Thus far (I know only four games) I think he's gone all in on the bolded, and I think he's fared quite well while not being a complete sieve.

I'm just saying compared to previous years he looks much more useful and the actual best defenseman instead of the default best defenseman.

Unfortunately in a cap league the performance to salary ratio is going to determine value which is important.

I don't think that Jones has a lot to offer on a very good team at that cap hit. He's a less bad Darnell Nurse. Certainly not at the level of a Keith, Doughty, Makar, Fox, Heiskanan, Jossi or similar who can dramatically change the dynamic of a game. It's reasonable to criticize the deal and the player's performance until they are no longer with the team or live up to the billing.

This is a good summary of the value of the trade at the time.

https://jfresh.substack.c...down-the-seth-jones-trade

This is even more in-depth

https://jfresh.substack.c...seth-jones-actually-elite

He is not a good skater laterally or backwards. As he slows down and ages, this deficiency is going to become very problematic, especially since his hockey sense is somewhere between mediocre and average. Same with him skating the puck out. Going to be an issue when he can't rely on his feet as much anymore. I don't think he'll reinvent himself like Jay Boewmeester.

Best case scenario is Levshunov and Rinzel are so damn good on the right side that he's relegated to 3rd pairing minutes and demands a trade to anywhere.
- fattybeef

A difference without a distinction?

Based on his Pops playing NBA ball, his size, skating and skill shown playing 2 yrs for the NTDP and the WJC. He was a blueblood many thought would go 1st overall but the cameras zoomed in on him as he fell to 4th IIRC.

Kid was thought to be a top 1/2 NHL 1st pairing Dman and he never has been, ie never reached his ceiling....... Watch the kid skate at his size and look at his career numbers. You think he reached his ceiling??.... IMO he has just average hockey IQ and that's what was missed that keeps him from being a consistent every night 1st pairing, 1st PP, workhorse, positive possession, 60 pt NHL Dman.
- Mr Ricochet

Jones is a workhorse. He is a top pair player. How do you get top five Norris votes without being a top pair guy?

Jones is a workhorse. He is a top pair player. How do you get top five Norris votes without being a top pair guy?
- ObeseOprah

Same way Reg Dunlop got the name of the owner of the Chiefs?

It would make Chicago a one baseball team city.

- rpeters01

It's always have been 1 team so there's that