Reaves had 9 shifts on Monday, for 5:27 of ice time.

I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but maybe, just maybe Berube is starting to see what I've seen all along.
- Atomic Wedgie

Kampf had 10, Lorentz had 12.

The third line of McMann - Domi - Holmberg had around 19 shifts and was arguably less effective.

You've got a hate on for Reaves and I'm not saying he's a good hockey player - he's not and he's basically washed up - but through his 8 games to start this season, Reaves hasn't been awful for the role they want him to play - 4th line checking/energy line. Yes, they are -3 together (the only goals that 4th line scored were when Bobby McMann played with them) and they are not apt to generate any significant offense, but when asked to get the puck in deep, keep it there and keep it away from their own net - they've actually done a modestly decent job of that. I give most of that credit to Steven Lorentz but for the most part I haven't hated Reaves out there (but I have seen him drag his ass 30 feet behind the play on at least 2 occasions).

They need a guy who works well with Kampf and Lorentz and enjoys those 4th line minutes of grinding the puck on the wall and winning those small 1v1 victories. It's not a huge requirement nor are they large skates to fill - but right now Reaves is doing it better than Holmberg.

Sandin was 21 years old.

Not the same.
- Santo_44

Sandin traded Feb 28th, 2023.
DOB: March 7th, 2000.

You can split hairs and fabricate info to make your own goalposts, that's fine. But really not all that different. They didn't manage themselves into a spot with Sandin where they had to take a poop package, they did with Liljegren. That's the whole story.

Sandin traded Feb 28th, 2023.
DOB: March 7th, 2000.

You can split hairs and fabricate info to make your own goalposts, that's fine. But really not all that different. They didn't manage themselves into a spot with Sandin where they had to take a poop package, they did with Liljegren. That's the whole story.
- joel878

I looked at roto wire, it says 22.

A massive difference regardless.

Sandin was a lot cheaper as well.

22 year old Sandin and a 25 year old Liljegren are not the same. Both are fair deals.

Kampf had 10, Lorentz had 12.

The third line of McMann - Domi - Holmberg had around 19 shifts and was arguably less effective.

You've got a hate on for Reaves and I'm not saying he's a good hockey player - he's not and he's basically washed up - but through his 8 games to start this season, Reaves hasn't been awful for the role they want him to play - 4th line checking/energy line. Yes, they are -3 together (the only goals that 4th line scored were when Bobby McMann played with them) and they are not apt to generate any significant offense, but when asked to get the puck in deep, keep it there and keep it away from their own net - they've actually done a modestly decent job of that. I give most of that credit to Steven Lorentz but for the most part I haven't hated Reaves out there (but I have seen him drag his ass 30 feet behind the play on at least 2 occasions).

They need a guy who works well with Kampf and Lorentz and enjoys those 4th line minutes of grinding the puck on the wall and winning those small 1v1 victories. It's not a huge requirement nor are they large skates to fill - but right now Reaves is doing it better than Holmberg.
- Monkeypunk

For 5:27 of icetime, it seems like a waste of a roster spot. That's not even a half-minute more than a fighting major. Granted, he hasn't looked terrible yet, but it's hard to look terrible when you're riding the bench for literally 90% of the game.

I wonder if the Domi-Matthews experiment is over. It seems like Domi is wasted on that line.

I looked at roto wire, it says 22.

A massive difference regardless.

Sandin was a lot cheaper as well.

22 year old Sandin and a 25 year old Liljegren are not the same. Both are fair deals.
- Santo_44

Literally 7 days away from turning 23.

The split hairs between ages don't matter, they do far better on a return for Liljegren if he's dealt last deadline.

Literally 7 days away from turning 23.

The split hairs between ages don't matter, they do far better on a return for Liljegren if he's dealt last deadline.
- joel878

Its not splitting hairs at all.

There is a massive difference in ages. a 22 year old D and 25 are not the same in their development, not even close.

Sandin got a 4.5M 5 year deal not long after the trade at 23. Liljegren is perceived to be slightly overpaid at 3M for 2 years at 25 turning 26 this season.

Those players are not comparable at all.

The return is not the worst given the scenario they found themselves in with Liljegren, but that's the problem, they managed themselves into that mess.

Sandin was on the same trajectory and having the stones to ship him at the deadline found them a 1st and a roster player, that 1st turned into the teams best prospect. Piss poor asset management to have worked themselves into this spot with Lily.

The talking heads are indicating Benning was a dump at SJ's request to make the dollars work and likely won't be around for long. Makes sense as the team isn't going to carry 9 D once Hakanpaa is activated in the next couple days and Myers provides the same for cheaper.
- joel878

Nah. Sandin is not a good comparable as he was younger (22 vs 25) when he was traded and also demonstrably ahead of Liljegren in pretty much every aspect of the game.

Regardless of whether Benning was a "dump", he's a serviceable 6/7 d-man who is much better than Liljegren defensively - which is what you want for a bottom pair guy. It gives the Leafs options as they may want to keep him around and trade Timmins instead.

At the end of the day, Liljegren didn't progress like we all hoped and this was about as good a deal - at this point in time - that you can get. You can argue that Dubas should have dumped him at the same time as he shipped out Sandin, but he didn't. And I doubt Liljegren fetches much last TDL or helps in a "hockey" deal at that time.

Tre did a solid piece of business here. How this is "meh" boggles the mind.

Sandin traded Feb 28th, 2023.
DOB: March 7th, 2000.

You can split hairs and fabricate info to make your own goalposts, that's fine. But really not all that different. They didn't manage themselves into a spot with Sandin where they had to take a poop package, they did with Liljegren. That's the whole story.
- joel878

At 22 a player is still a prospect with an unrealized ceiling. There's often a lot of growth between 22-25 in players. Sometimes there's significant growth after 25, but it's really infrequent if the player hasn't really shown that promise being realized before.

So with Sandin at 22, Washington was betting that he could be more. So far this year Sandin has been largely deployed with Trevor van Riemsdyk in a top-4 role and hasn't fared too badly. In a top-4 role he's +4 in just 80 minutes of ice time; he did play a couple of games up with Carlson on the top pair and was a little less effective (even). I think top-4 was always his ceiling.

Liljegren is 25 and we know what he is: a smooth skating, but not necessarily fast skating defenseman who is not physical nor strong. He is an excellent passer with fantastic up ice vision. He's a mediocre defender who often closes gaps too slowly and does not have an active enough stick. I think he has top-4 potential on a lower tier club and PP2 QB potential - just like we saw here. . . . and my reasoning is simply that we weren't seeing any growth in his game over the past 2 years. He needed to get tougher. He needed to start winning battles. He needed to engage sooner on the puck carrier - and none of that was happening.

I'm not being an ass when I say that because San Jose is growing and has time to make a lot of mistakes, Liljegren might just be going to an environment that can afford to be more patient with him and perhaps he does grow more after 25. But he was never going to do it here.

Its not splitting hairs at all.

There is a massive difference in ages. a 22 year old D and 25 are not the same in their development, not even close.

Sandin got a 4.5M 5 year deal not long after the trade at 23. Liljegren is perceived to be slightly overpaid at 3M for 2 years at 25 turning 26 this season.

Those players are not comparable at all.
- Santo_44

7 days away from turning 23.

There's just as big of a gap between Sandins and Liljegrens ages when they were traded as there is between what you said Sandins age was when traded, and what his age actually was when traded.

So is it a massive gap or not.

They signed Liljegren to the 3 mil per deal because there was a legitimate fear he would get Sandin money in arbitration. This is not a secret.

The arbitration fear does not exist if you trade him at the deadline.

Liljegren was playing significant minutes last season and actually replaced Rielly on PP1 at points. That factored along with the arbitration looming and all the other variables, you'd have to be a complete Neanderthal to think they got a better return finagling themselves into a spot the entire league knew he needed to be dumped, than they would have at the deadline like they did with Sandin.

Nah. Sandin is not a good comparable as he was younger (22 vs 25) when he was traded and also demonstrably ahead of Liljegren in pretty much every aspect of the game.

Regardless of whether Benning was a "dump", he's a serviceable 6/7 d-man who is much better than Liljegren defensively - which is what you want for a bottom pair guy. It gives the Leafs options as they may want to keep him around and trade Timmins instead.

At the end of the day, Liljegren didn't progress like we all hoped and this was about as good a deal - at this point in time - that you can get. You can argue that Dubas should have dumped him at the same time as he shipped out Sandin, but he didn't. And I doubt Liljegren fetches much last TDL or helps in a "hockey" deal at that time.

Tre did a solid piece of business here. How this is "meh" boggles the mind.
- mjones242

Yep exactly.

He probably agrees now, he just can't back down from his stance.

Liljegren now and Sandin then are not comparable

For 5:27 of icetime, it seems like a waste of a roster spot. That's not even a half-minute more than a fighting major. Granted, he hasn't looked terrible yet, but it's hard to look terrible when you're riding the bench for literally 90% of the game.

I wonder if the Domi-Matthews experiment is over. It seems like Domi is wasted on that line.
- GalacticStone

Well. You have Matthews and Tavares who are offensive centres. Then you have Marner and Domi who are puck distributors. McMann and Knies, who are different, but both occupy a decent amount of physical space and can win pucks on the boards and get to the front of the net. I like the way Knies does all of it much, much more. There's Nylander who carries the puck so well, is an excellent shooter and a good distributor. Then you get Pacioretty who is a LW and probably needs some speed on his line to offset his age.

Two of those guys are the odd men out and on the 3rd line.

The current Knies - Matthews - Marner and Pacioretty - Tavares - Nylander is decent and without crapping on Domi or McMann, Pacioretty is relatively defensively responsible all things considered. Nylander has grown a step defensively so far this year, too.

I'm not against putting Domi out with Matthews, but Domi also gives us a 3C option that gives that line some more dynamics. I think Jarnkrok coming in for Holmberg (when he's ready) makes the line slightly more rounded - but I think every Leaf fan wouldn't be adverse to some type of 3rd line upgrade.

Reading some predictions on Juan Soto contract




- senstroll

Too much.

Loljebust and SanRichard both suck

At 22 a player is still a prospect with an unrealized ceiling. There's often a lot of growth between 22-25 in players. Sometimes there's significant growth after 25, but it's really infrequent if the player hasn't really shown that promise being realized before.

So with Sandin at 22, Washington was betting that he could be more. So far this year Sandin has been largely deployed with Trevor van Riemsdyk in a top-4 role and hasn't fared too badly. In a top-4 role he's +4 in just 80 minutes of ice time; he did play a couple of games up with Carlson on the top pair and was a little less effective (even). I think top-4 was always his ceiling.

Liljegren is 25 and we know what he is: a smooth skating, but not necessarily fast skating defenseman who is not physical nor strong. He is an excellent passer with fantastic up ice vision. He's a mediocre defender who often closes gaps too slowly and does not have an active enough stick. I think he has top-4 potential on a lower tier club and PP2 QB potential - just like we saw here. . . . and my reasoning is simply that we weren't seeing any growth in his game over the past 2 years. He needed to get tougher. He needed to start winning battles. He needed to engage sooner on the puck carrier - and none of that was happening.

I'm not being an ass when I say that because San Jose is growing and has time to make a lot of mistakes, Liljegren might just be going to an environment that can afford to be more patient with him and perhaps he does grow more after 25. But he was never going to do it here.
- Monkeypunk

Sure, I don't disagree. My argument here is not that Liljegren would have gotten more than Sandin, it's that he would have fetched a better return if they didn't cornhole themselves.

Put it this way, if they worked themselves into a similar situation with Sandin, I'm thinking the return for him would have been comparable to two meh draft picks and a dump. The timing allowed them to find what is now their best prospect.

I've already said, the return is not horrible given the situation they found themselves in. But the big picture situation could have been managed better and a better return found as a result. That's asset management.

Too much.
- Fakepartofme

nah. would sign him now for that

he is basically 2024 version of Mickey Mantle.
take the Jays money

nah. would sign him now for that

he is basically 2024 version of Mickey Mantle.
take the Jays money
- senstroll

hasnt won anything. cant pay those types apparently

nah. would sign him now for that

he is basically 2024 version of Mickey Mantle.
take the Jays money
- senstroll

Agreed

Has anyone checked on Gigsy?

Has anyone checked on Gigsy?
- mr.sir

If he went into those woods you can forget about him.

The January 16th trade to the Leafs Brock Nelson 50% retained is going to hit nicely.

nah. would sign him now for that

he is basically 2024 version of Mickey Mantle.
take the Jays money
- senstroll

Hes great, but $50m per is pricey.
But the jays have to do something or somethings

Dewar sucks
Does nothing particularly well
Ship him out before others

The Dew car smell already wore off

Go 🍁 Go
💙

hasnt won anything. cant pay those types apparently
- drexel

cant sign good players if they havent won, but cant win if you dont sign good players.

RIP 2025 season.. lets try again in 2026

Sure, I don't disagree. My argument here is not that Liljegren would have gotten more than Sandin, it's that he would have fetched a better return if they didn't cornhole themselves.

Put it this way, if they worked themselves into a similar situation with Sandin, I'm thinking the return for him would have been comparable to two meh draft picks and a dump. The timing allowed them to find what is now their best prospect.

I've already said, the return is not horrible given the situation they found themselves in. But the big picture situation could have been managed better and a better return found as a result. That's asset management.
- joel878

Yeah - the return would have been better if done even just before the contract or arbitration. I am guessing that there were timing issues in there. I'm not sure why but I always got the impression that Keefe liked Liljegren and from that I suspect Treliving and Berube wanted to see if he'd progressed and how he looked at camp and what he'd done with the feedback from the team (usually you get those offseason primers - go put on 5lbs of muscle or 10lbs of muscle; eat this, do that, work on this, work that, etc.). I don't know how he showed up or what he'd done or not done, but I know that almost immediately Berube wasn't impressed and this was, unfortunately, after Liljegren had a $3m contract.

The real way to maximize Liljegren was to recognize that he wasn't a piece we wanted or needed and traded him, like Sandin, at last year's TDL - while he was a cheap RFA. As soon as he signed that $3m contract his value dropped. You could have fetched a decent return for him and spent a 7th or something and grabbed a guy like a Benning to sit in the wings.

Hes great, but $50m per is pricey.
But the jays have to do something or somethings
- Fakepartofme

Can they do some of the deferral bs?