I'm guessing he meant points?
- Scabeh

I suppose the word you'd be looking for is "potentially series clinching" games. In other words with a win one team can end the series. Scoring the winner to prolong the series seems like a clutch thing based on what everyone is female doging about all the time.

I'm not saying I completely disagree with this statement, but I do think it's fair if someone thinks Marner is better than Matthews.

Over the past five years, their ppg is nearly identical.

One's a goal scorer, one's a playmaker.

Mitch is probably a little better at the PK.
- Atomic Wedgie

to me AM is a level or 2 above mitch. there are and have been lots of Mitch type players. AM to me us a unicorn in the NHL.

injuries aside. AM rates better than MM pretty much always when it comes to on ice value. AM has a good D game also..and as a C ..much more valuable.

its not even a discussion imo

I'm not saying I completely disagree with this statement, but I do think it's fair if someone thinks Marner is better than Matthews.

Over the past five years, their ppg is nearly identical.

One's a goal scorer, one's a playmaker.

Mitch is probably a little better at the PK.
- Atomic Wedgie

Fair enough but if you were building a team from scratch and could only take one of the 2 players who would it be?

I'm taking Matthews over Marner and it's not even close for me.

Centre over a winger all day every day.

Big body Centre at that who has shown he can play physical when needed and continues to increase his physical game, & his defensive game year over year and who is a legit scoring threat every time he has the puck.

I'd like to see Matthews become more of a playmaking threat but it may never happen.

Marner is an elite playmaker, great PK guy but his lack of physicality is likely never going to change and more often than not he is not a scoring threat - he is a playmaking for a goal threat almost always (unless he's flipping the puck over the glass at a critical time - lol).

Both are unreal players and the leafs are lucky to have both but I just don't see them as being worth the same $'s (never mind Marner being worth more).

I'd like to have seen Willy, & Matthews take less on their new deals but the JT contract really made that hard to do so here we are. Marner says he loves Toronto etc. so prove it- take a modest bump in pay and help the team have some dollars to use on the bottom 6 or D or goalies. Marner got overpaid last contract so to me it's time for him to do the right thing and not seek to break the bank this time.

If he wants AM money I'd let him go somewhere else to get it and he can be the captain or the numero uno guy there. The Leafs can't continue to do the same thing with the top few guys in relation to salary distribution and expect it to suddenly work when it hasn't yet.

Fair enough but if you were building a team from scratch and could only take one of the 2 players who would it be?

I'm taking Matthews over Marner and it's not even close for me.

Centre over a winger all day every day.

Big body Centre at that who has shown he can play physical when needed and continues to increase his physical game, & his defensive game year over year and who is a legit scoring threat every time he has the puck.

I'd like to see Matthews become more of a playmaking threat but it may never happen.

Marner is an elite playmaker, great PK guy but his lack of physicality is likely never going to change and more often than not he is not a scoring threat - he is a playmaking for a goal threat almost always (unless he's flipping the puck over the glass at a critical time - lol).

Both are unreal players and the leafs are lucky to have both but I just don't see them as being worth the same $'s (never mind Marner being worth more).

I'd like to have seen Willy, & Matthews take less on their new deals but the JT contract really made that hard to do so here we are. Marner says he loves Toronto etc. so prove it- take a modest bump in pay and help the team have some dollars to use on the bottom 6 or D or goalies. Marner got overpaid last contract so to me it's time for him to do the right thing and not seek to break the bank this time.

If he wants AM money I'd let him go somewhere else to get it and he can be the captain or the numero uno guy there. The Leafs can't continue to do the same thing with the top few guys in relation to salary distribution and expect it to suddenly work when it hasn't yet.
- Cush29

Agreed.

Btw, what did Willy say that was so inspiring? I missed it. He's been really good this year.

Not series winning. Any game where a series can be clinched would be a series clinching game - so basically any time one team or the other has 3 wins.

Marner scored the GWG against Florida in 2023 when we were down 3-0; he also scored in 2018 against Boston when we were down 3-2 to push it to game 7.

JT scored the winner against Tampa in 2023.

Nylander scored in game 6 against Boston last year to push it to game 7.

Matthews scored in game 4 against Columbus to push that one to game 5.

I mean the fact that this is such a short list and easy to compile is painful.
- Monkeypunk

Wait so your saying Marner scoring a goal to win a game when the Leafs were down 3 games to none matters to the same degree as these other goals?

Sorry man but to me no shot those are anywhere near the same.

FFS - this place was chugging along pretty well for quite some time, then suddenly we have pages and pages of bullpoop about people only being allowed to love or hate Marner again & having to defend their opinions because someone (singular) keeps posting stupid BS about Marner just to stir the pot?

Wonder why that is? What changed?

Marner is not the best player on the Leafs, nor in the world, nowhere close to it in fact.

Marner does not deserve to make more than Matthews FFS, no shot, rising cap or not.

Matthews does not need Marner to be successful, he's proven that in the past playing with Willy or Domi etc.

Marner may not need Matthews to be successful he's proven that for what 15 regular season games or so? Show that to me in the playoffs Mitchell and then perhaps we can have a conversation about if you are worth more than what Willy makes or what AM gets paid or not.

This is why playing MM and AM together is stupid. Keep them on seperate lines and spread out the threats, making it harder for teams to defend against them.

Until then keep doing what you have done the past 15 or so games, carry that into the playoffs and LEAD this (frank)ing team to a deep playoff run. YES LEAD you have the A on your sweater for a reason.

Same for Matthews, JT and Reilly who have an letter on their jersey - LEAD THIS (frank)ING TEAM TO A DEEP RUN, NOW.

The only one of these guys who has actually done that is JT who as someone else pointed out scored the goal to get them to the 2nd round. Once.

Side note - Nylander's statement that someone posted on here a few days ago speaks volumes on how much he wants to win here. Has anyone every heard Marner or even Matthews say something that raw about that topic? I have never seen or heard anything like that and it's a shame because reading it as a Leafs fan, how could you not say "(frank) yes Willy, we are with you"?
- Cush29

You want to blame one user, but his over the top hyperbole about Marner is something you can easily ignore. What irked me was Dozzer's statement, "Who cares about Mitch’s value til he proves he’s not a wimpy ass loser who isn’t even a PPG in the post season."

You might agree with him from your statement above, but as I've said repeatedly - the numbers are not so stark that the prove anyone's statement that Marner is the problem. They ALL disappear when it counts. Marner being a puck distributor would probably excel more if the other guys (1) finished on the excellent chances and (2) were actually fighting through checks to be in places where 1 can happen. I love Matthews but his shooting distance from the net falls about 10 feet in the playoffs. His shots move from highly dangerous to sorta threatening.

It's technically all moot anyway - I really think this team is showing more character than I've seen from them in the past. In past seasons I've been enthusiastic and some wins seem bigger or larger, but this season looks like the beginning of developing the style to achieve consistently winning hockey. I believe Marner also will excel in that environment.

Agreed.

Btw, what did Willy say that was so inspiring? I missed it. He's been really good this year.
- fifty__missions

This is the Willy quote.

to me AM is a level or 2 above mitch. there are and have been lots of Mitch type players. AM to me us a unicorn in the NHL.

injuries aside. AM rates better than MM pretty much always when it comes to on ice value. AM has a good D game also..and as a C ..much more valuable.

its not even a discussion imo
- senstroll

I agree. I mean we've seen Matthews make unbelievable passes as well. He is excellent at everything. He's a top-3 player in the world to me.

Who cares about you?
- Arctic_AARDVARK

Mitch Marner might be the best player in the world.

Factoring his elite defensive game, it’s not out of the question. None of the other pts leaders are even slightly comparable to Mitch defensively.

Imagine hating this guy.
- Arctic_AARDVARK

He is playing excellent. But he is not even a top 10 player in the world. He is worth about 11.5 but will probably get 12 because Leafs. I don't think there is a team in the NHL that would offer him 13. Certainly no team he would want to play for. Leafs should call is bluff. He was over paid in his last contract. Can't keep overpaying.

If he truly wants to be a Leaf and win as a Leaf he will take 11.5-12 and be happy. Otherwise he can piss off.

(also, if he doesn't show up in the playoffs again this year, he needs to take a pay cut, not raise)

Mitch Marner might be the best player in the world.

Factoring his elite defensive game, it’s not out of the question. None of the other pts leaders are even slightly comparable to Mitch defensively.

Imagine hating this guy.
- Arctic_AARDVARK

you sure you quit smoking cannabis ?
don't forget he's playing for a new contract.

Who cares about Mitch’s value til he proves he’s not a wimpy ass loser who isn’t even a PPG in the post season.
- Dozzer

I concur
show me in the playoff Marner you can play like you do in the regular season.

Looks like we are not missing Kampf
- mr.sir

I think Mitten can replace him

Fair enough but if you were building a team from scratch and could only take one of the 2 players who would it be?

I'm taking Matthews over Marner and it's not even close for me.

Centre over a winger all day every day.

Big body Centre at that who has shown he can play physical when needed and continues to increase his physical game, & his defensive game year over year and who is a legit scoring threat every time he has the puck.

I'd like to see Matthews become more of a playmaking threat but it may never happen.

Marner is an elite playmaker, great PK guy but his lack of physicality is likely never going to change and more often than not he is not a scoring threat - he is a playmaking for a goal threat almost always (unless he's flipping the puck over the glass at a critical time - lol).

Both are unreal players and the leafs are lucky to have both but I just don't see them as being worth the same $'s (never mind Marner being worth more).

I'd like to have seen Willy, & Matthews take less on their new deals but the JT contract really made that hard to do so here we are. Marner says he loves Toronto etc. so prove it- take a modest bump in pay and help the team have some dollars to use on the bottom 6 or D or goalies. Marner got overpaid last contract so to me it's time for him to do the right thing and not seek to break the bank this time.

If he wants AM money I'd let him go somewhere else to get it and he can be the captain or the numero uno guy there. The Leafs can't continue to do the same thing with the top few guys in relation to salary distribution and expect it to suddenly work when it hasn't yet.
- Cush29

My point was that if we are sitting in a bar having a few beers and someone says they think Marner is better than Matthews, I'm going to hear them out - I'm not going to dismiss them and tell them they are stupid.

Who cares about Mitch’s value til he proves he’s not a wimpy ass loser who isn’t even a PPG in the post season.
- Dozzer

Matthews has yet to prove that and he got paid

This is the Willy quote.



- Cush29

🥰

I concur
show me in the playoff Marner you can play like you do in the regular season.
- dmnted

Unlike Matthews he’s no award winning forward. The end.

Until he proves he significantly can be more than a PPG guy in the post season don’t give him much.

Just my opinion, I don’t expect anyone to agree with me lol

you sure you quit smoking cannabis ?
don't forget he's playing for a new contract.
- dmnted

I think that when fans trot out this narrative, 99% of the time it's BS.

Look at Willy Styles - everyone said he was guilty of this.

Lo and behold, he's playing the best he's ever played - with a new contract in hand.

Matthews has yet to prove that and he got paid
- Fakepartofme

He’s got a few more awards. Way better than Marner.

to me its more just about.....getting paid big... and not exactly delivering when the team needs one of the highest paid players to do so.

I think its pretty normal for fans to call out the big guns when over and over...he has shriveled up as the series go on.



if you isolate games 5-7 in series, its even more pathetic.

if he becomes the highest paid player on the team..expectaions come with it.

JT gets ragged on a lot, but at least he scored a goal to send the team the to 2nd round
- senstroll

Didnt marner score the winning goal and assisted on the first in the leafs ONLY 2nd round victory they've had in decades. I believe it was an elimination game as well.

You want to blame one user, but his over the top hyperbole about Marner is something you can easily ignore. What irked me was Dozzer's statement, "Who cares about Mitch’s value til he proves he’s not a wimpy ass loser who isn’t even a PPG in the post season."

You might agree with him from your statement above, but as I've said repeatedly - the numbers are not so stark that the prove anyone's statement that Marner is the problem. They ALL disappear when it counts. Marner being a puck distributor would probably excel more if the other guys (1) finished on the excellent chances and (2) were actually fighting through checks to be in places where 1 can happen. I love Matthews but his shooting distance from the net falls about 10 feet in the playoffs. His shots move from highly dangerous to sorta threatening.

It's technically all moot anyway - I really think this team is showing more character than I've seen from them in the past. In past seasons I've been enthusiastic and some wins seem bigger or larger, but this season looks like the beginning of developing the style to achieve consistently winning hockey. I believe Marner also will excel in that environment.
- Monkeypunk

Hard to ignore the same BS posted over and over and over, I could argue it would have been easier for you to simply ignore the one post by Dozzer that irked you.

Please don't assume what I do or don't agree with, Dozzer's comment was his comment so if you take issue with it you can deal with Dozzer on it.

Yes I think Marner needs to be better in the playoffs (as I do with a bunch of other Leafs) but you assuming I am laying the bulk of the blame at Marner's feet is wrong.

It's like me saying you are simply an avid Marner defender, seeking to push blame to anyone else but him by constantly defending Marner and claiming it's the system or lack of the right players around Marner that is the problem and not Marner.

It would be easy to do because you have said it repeatedly and used Patrick Kane as an example more than once (btw comparing Kane to Marner is not apples to apples, Kane has always been a much bigger SCORING threat than Marner).

That being said you close off most if not all of your posts on this topic saying you see fault in Marner as well as others so it would be wrong (yet easy to say) of me to say you are simply a "Marner-wife".

And yes, I predominately blame one user for constantly saying things that are over the top just to re-ignite this stupid debate that happens here far too often. When that user was not here this didn't happen, that says it all.

I like both players, I like pretty much all the Leaf players and feel no need to rank them in who I love the most to the least.

I just wish this place had an ignore button so you could mute and not see posts from specific posters TBH.

He’s got a few more awards. Way better than Marner.
- Dozzer

Awards are cool....if you really care about the reg season.
He has done about the same or less than marner in the playoffs.
Im not interested in overpaying Marner either...but to dump on him about playoff results and not matthews as well....is bias.

Didnt marner score the winning goal and assisted on the first in the leafs ONLY 2nd round victory they've had in decades. I believe it was an elimination game as well.
- Fakepartofme

i have no idea..couldnt have been that memorable

My point was that if we are sitting in a bar having a few beers and someone says they think Marner is better than Matthews, I'm going to hear them out - I'm not going to dismiss them and tell them they are stupid.
- Atomic Wedgie

Shut up stupid.


I definitely would do the same, everyone is entitled to their opinion, what I find insanely frustrating is when you do allow someone to speak their piece and you don't agree an inability to agree to disagree and move on. Tack in a bit of making outlandish claims over and over and over to that.....well you know.

Both players are incredible, as Leaf fans we are insanely lucky to get to see them both play as Leafs. It wil be interesting to see if that continues or not and if it does continue is there a cost to doing so from the perspective of team success?

I would love nothing more than to see Marner stay at a fair salary and the Leafs go on deep playoff runs with both these guys, I'm just not sure it's going to happen.

He’s no $13+ mill guy when he’s only 0.87PPG in the post season.

Other teams can focus more deeply on the leafs game style in the post season and other than a couple decent years Marner has been owned in the post season. Nylander is 0.8PPG in the post season so imo, until Marner proves he’s significantly better than that in the playoffs, he’s only worth about $12 as I’ve always said, and that’s a big if when it comes to choosing if he’s even worth keeping.

If he steps up huge this post season under the new coach, then sure, give him a Matthews-like offer, but otherwise no thanks.
- Dozzer

Ive been saying either the same as willy or just a little more.

But unfortunately due to how high they expect the cap to go.....he'll want more.
Which sucks.