That's just terrible. I didn't even realize how good the kid SJ drafted was playing. I was skeptical about Dubas from the start, but even the one move I liked, getting Karlsson, has been a disappointment.
- Tojo.

He is like the ideal customer to do business with... Buy high, sell low...

Karlsson - bought high, going to have to retain on to trade.
Jarry - overpaid and now headed to minors
Smith - never understood why we took his full salary.
McGroaty - a disgruntled prospect who was forcing a trade out netted our #1 prospect who was loved by Sid. TBD how it turns out but he should have been able to get more value back.
Jake - went for leftovers.

I miss the days of us getting Kunitz for Whitney and Kessel w. Retention for Kap, a 1st and a 3rd. Let's see what he can do with Petts sooner than later.

He is like the ideal customer to do business with... Buy high, sell low...

Karlsson - bought high, going to have to retain on to trade.
Jarry - overpaid and now headed to minors
Smith - never understood why we took his full salary.
McGroaty - a disgruntled prospect who was forcing a trade out netted our #1 prospect who was loved by Sid. TBD how it turns out but he should have been able to get more value back.
Jake - went for leftovers.

I miss the days of us getting Kunitz for Whitney and Kessel w. Retention for Kap, a 1st and a 3rd. Let's see what he can do with Petts sooner than later.
- MacPatty

I mean as stated earlier he kinda failed on the Jake trade. So I can see him botching a Petts deal.

So yeah... In hindsight, Dubas has been bad.

I'll get kicked in the teeth for this post, but whatever lol. That article doesn't include much context. So off the top of my head.....

I remember the Jarry signing. Most people hated the length and realized the risk. What were the options at the time? The Pens needed a tender and I don't believe there were other FA's of any repute. They chose the devil they know because he had some pretty good stretches previously. His problem was always consistency.

Graves... I don't remember some great revolt like the Jack Johnson contract. Most people seemed to think he was a decent player. Obviously, he hasn't been here. (By the way, when Petts goes, he's getting back in the lineup.) Of all Dubas's mis-evaluations, this is the top of my list. Graves sucks.

EK... Everybody around here (other than Grinder) seemed pretty happy with that deal. Sent out some bad contracts for a super-star dman coming off a 100 pt season. Personally, I wouldn't have gone that direction because I didn't feel that's what they were missing, but I admit, I was excited to see him play in Pittsburgh. He's still around a 60pt RD. I don't think the team has ever adapted to playing with him.

Smith was brought here after a pretty good run in Vegas. He was directly replacing Zucker and he was coming off a really nice season. I'm a big fan of Zucker, but he did have problems staying healthy here. Most people didn't have any problem with the trade until it was obvious Smith didn't want to play here. Multiple reporters said he moped about not being in Vegas and it showed.

The Guentzal deal was obviously disappointing from what most were expecting, but he was also coming off of injury. We should have gotten a 1st at minimum. Still, we turned the 2nd into Brunike. Looks like Koivenen could be a player. Ponamerev is unimpressive. Bunting has been pretty good and he could get flipped for another asset. This trade will need at least a few more years to fully judge. If Brunicke turns into a top 4 Dman and Koivenen turns into a top 9 forward, I don't know if you expect more from an UFA trade. Are teams giving up top prospects for UFA's any more?

I loved Lars Eller here, but most of his other FA deals admittedly weren't good.

Jarry's record before the contract...

20-12 .921
25-9 .909
34-18 .919
24-13 .909

All star in '20 and '22

Jarry's record before the contract...

20-12 .921
25-9 .909
34-18 .919
24-13 .909

All star in '20 and '22
- madmike71

He had a history of starting strong and falling apart at the end of the year because he could not handle the volume. In 8 playoff games he had a .891 sv% and a 3.0 GAA. And the majority of those games were against the Islanders who did not exactly have a fierce offence.

I was fine keeping him for 3 years at $4M or under, it just seemed like Dubas out bid himself on both term and dollars.

So yeah... In hindsight, Dubas has been bad.

I'll get kicked in the teeth for this post, but whatever lol. That article doesn't include much context. So off the top of my head.....

I remember the Jarry signing. Most people hated the length and realized the risk. What were the options at the time? The Pens needed a tender and I don't believe there were other FA's of any repute. They chose the devil they know because he had some pretty good stretches previously. His problem was always consistency.

Graves... I don't remember some great revolt like the Jack Johnson contract. Most people seemed to think he was a decent player. Obviously, he hasn't been here. (By the way, when Petts goes, he's getting back in the lineup.) Of all Dubas's mis-evaluations, this is the top of my list. Graves sucks.

EK... Everybody around here (other than Grinder) seemed pretty happy with that deal. Sent out some bad contracts for a super-star dman coming off a 100 pt season. Personally, I wouldn't have gone that direction because I didn't feel that's what they were missing, but I admit, I was excited to see him play in Pittsburgh. He's still around a 60pt RD. I don't think the team has ever adapted to playing with him.

Smith was brought here after a pretty good run in Vegas. He was directly replacing Zucker and he was coming off a really nice season. I'm a big fan of Zucker, but he did have problems staying healthy here. Most people didn't have any problem with the trade until it was obvious Smith didn't want to play here. Multiple reporters said he moped about not being in Vegas and it showed.

The Guentzal deal was obviously disappointing from what most were expecting, but he was also coming off of injury. We should have gotten a 1st at minimum. Still, we turned the 2nd into Brunike. Looks like Koivenen could be a player. Ponamerev is unimpressive. Bunting has been pretty good and he could get flipped for another asset. This trade will need at least a few more years to fully judge. If Brunicke turns into a top 4 Dman and Koivenen turns into a top 9 forward, I don't know if you expect more from an UFA trade. Are teams giving up top prospects for UFA's any more?

I loved Lars Eller here, but most of his other FA deals admittedly weren't good.
- madmike71

I have to eat crow and admit that I thought the Graves signing was going to work out for us. I didnt think he was going to be a huge game changer, but I thought a solid 2nd pair LD on what seemed to be a reasonable contract.

Believe his situation is part he was overrated and part the guy got a big contract and decided to just (frank) off and not care anymore.

I have to eat crow and admit that I thought the Graves signing was going to work out for us. I didnt think he was going to be a huge game changer, but I thought a solid 2nd pair LD on what seemed to be a reasonable contract.

Believe his situation is part he was overrated and part the guy got a big contract and decided to just (frank) off and not care anymore.
- MacPatty

Just about 95% of this board thought the Graves signing was "great."

Just about 95% of this board thought the Graves signing was "great."
- j.boyd919

Even us experts get it wrong sometimes...

Even us experts get it wrong sometimes...
- MacPatty

They should be trying to pawn him off on Buffalo since he had some success under Ruffs system.

These are the exact responses only the golden boy gets. It doesn't matter what "we thought" I wanna see results. And they are bad. Some saying as bad as it's been across the entire league. That's why hes paid millions and "we" don't get paid. When his "best" move is getting a 3rd for Lars Eller after 3 years.... well ya.

A little info, that are career numbers that hopefully Dubas was able to find before making a long term signing because it only took me 2-3 minutes to find.

https://www.pensburgh.com...turbing-second-half-trend
https://www.pensburgh.com...ittsburgh-nhl-free-agency

Lets call a spade a spade here, If this was the work of Hextall there would be a full on bounty on his head across every penguins platform that existed.

Nobody cares if a baseball players swing is good if he strikes out 95% of the time.

So yeah... In hindsight, Dubas has been bad.

I'll get kicked in the teeth for this post, but whatever lol. That article doesn't include much context. So off the top of my head.....

I remember the Jarry signing. Most people hated the length and realized the risk. What were the options at the time? The Pens needed a tender and I don't believe there were other FA's of any repute. They chose the devil they know because he had some pretty good stretches previously. His problem was always consistency.

Graves... I don't remember some great revolt like the Jack Johnson contract. Most people seemed to think he was a decent player. Obviously, he hasn't been here. (By the way, when Petts goes, he's getting back in the lineup.) Of all Dubas's mis-evaluations, this is the top of my list. Graves sucks.

EK... Everybody around here (other than Grinder) seemed pretty happy with that deal. Sent out some bad contracts for a super-star dman coming off a 100 pt season. Personally, I wouldn't have gone that direction because I didn't feel that's what they were missing, but I admit, I was excited to see him play in Pittsburgh. He's still around a 60pt RD. I don't think the team has ever adapted to playing with him.

Smith was brought here after a pretty good run in Vegas. He was directly replacing Zucker and he was coming off a really nice season. I'm a big fan of Zucker, but he did have problems staying healthy here. Most people didn't have any problem with the trade until it was obvious Smith didn't want to play here. Multiple reporters said he moped about not being in Vegas and it showed.

The Guentzal deal was obviously disappointing from what most were expecting, but he was also coming off of injury. We should have gotten a 1st at minimum. Still, we turned the 2nd into Brunike. Looks like Koivenen could be a player. Ponamerev is unimpressive. Bunting has been pretty good and he could get flipped for another asset. This trade will need at least a few more years to fully judge. If Brunicke turns into a top 4 Dman and Koivenen turns into a top 9 forward, I don't know if you expect more from an UFA trade. Are teams giving up top prospects for UFA's any more?

I loved Lars Eller here, but most of his other FA deals admittedly weren't good.
- madmike71

Everything everyone’s always wrong about you can include (except me).

They should be trying to pawn him off on Buffalo since he had some success under Ruffs system.
- j.boyd919

I'd love that, didnt realize the Ruff connection. But Buffalo already has 4 left handed D men that are better than Graves.

Powers, Dahlin, Byram and Samuelsson. I wonder what we would have to attach to Graves to get Byram?

I'd love that, didnt realize the Ruff connection. But Buffalo already has 4 left handed D men that are better than Graves.

Powers, Dahlin, Byram and Samuelsson. I wonder what we would have to attach to Graves to get Byram?
- MacPatty

Ruff was his coach in NJD when he got paid by the Pens lol

He had a history of starting strong and falling apart at the end of the year because he could not handle the volume. In 8 playoff games he had a .891 sv% and a 3.0 GAA. And the majority of those games were against the Islanders who did not exactly have a fierce offence.

I was fine keeping him for 3 years at $4M or under, it just seemed like Dubas out bid himself on both term and dollars.
- MacPatty

That's the thing about UFA's. You tend to over-pay because you're likely negotiating against yourself. Based on those regular season numbers, it wasn't a huge over-pay. The risk was the consistency. As you point out, the late season collapses and horrid playoffs.

Jarry clears … no surprises here. From All Star to Dump-star

They will get rid of Jarry this offseason. The writing is on the wall. Now they should Waiver Ned and Graves lol

I'd love that, didnt realize the Ruff connection. But Buffalo already has 4 left handed D men that are better than Graves.

Powers, Dahlin, Byram and Samuelsson. I wonder what we would have to attach to Graves to get Byram?
- MacPatty

Byram is playing 1RD so probably a 1st and a good prospect.

He is like the ideal customer to do business with... Buy high, sell low...

Karlsson - bought high, going to have to retain on to trade.
Jarry - overpaid and now headed to minors
Smith - never understood why we took his full salary.
McGroaty - a disgruntled prospect who was forcing a trade out netted our #1 prospect who was loved by Sid. TBD how it turns out but he should have been able to get more value back.
Jake - went for leftovers.

I miss the days of us getting Kunitz for Whitney and Kessel w. Retention for Kap, a 1st and a 3rd. Let's see what he can do with Petts sooner than later.
- MacPatty

I agree they will retain. I think they can move Karlsson now that he has less term. Maybe this TDL, good chance in the off-season. That's if they want to, because it would open a massive hole they'd have to use most of not all the savings to fill anyways. Might depend on what's in UFA which I haven't looked at.

So yeah... In hindsight, Dubas has been bad.

I'll get kicked in the teeth for this post, but whatever lol. That article doesn't include much context. So off the top of my head.....

I remember the Jarry signing. Most people hated the length and realized the risk. What were the options at the time? The Pens needed a tender and I don't believe there were other FA's of any repute. They chose the devil they know because he had some pretty good stretches previously. His problem was always consistency.

Graves... I don't remember some great revolt like the Jack Johnson contract. Most people seemed to think he was a decent player. Obviously, he hasn't been here. (By the way, when Petts goes, he's getting back in the lineup.) Of all Dubas's mis-evaluations, this is the top of my list. Graves sucks.

EK... Everybody around here (other than Grinder) seemed pretty happy with that deal. Sent out some bad contracts for a super-star dman coming off a 100 pt season. Personally, I wouldn't have gone that direction because I didn't feel that's what they were missing, but I admit, I was excited to see him play in Pittsburgh. He's still around a 60pt RD. I don't think the team has ever adapted to playing with him.

Smith was brought here after a pretty good run in Vegas. He was directly replacing Zucker and he was coming off a really nice season. I'm a big fan of Zucker, but he did have problems staying healthy here. Most people didn't have any problem with the trade until it was obvious Smith didn't want to play here. Multiple reporters said he moped about not being in Vegas and it showed.

The Guentzal deal was obviously disappointing from what most were expecting, but he was also coming off of injury. We should have gotten a 1st at minimum. Still, we turned the 2nd into Brunike. Looks like Koivenen could be a player. Ponamerev is unimpressive. Bunting has been pretty good and he could get flipped for another asset. This trade will need at least a few more years to fully judge. If Brunicke turns into a top 4 Dman and Koivenen turns into a top 9 forward, I don't know if you expect more from an UFA trade. Are teams giving up top prospects for UFA's any more?

I loved Lars Eller here, but most of his other FA deals admittedly weren't good.
- madmike71

Honestly it's a good exercise to check ourselves.

Agree on Jarry. He was the best available goalie, but even then we knew he was a gamble. They were basically screwed because they couldn't say they were contending without a goalie, but they missed badly here. Think it was fair to feel either way and a lot of people didn't want him back.

I thought Graves was unnecessary but solidified the defense so that EK and Letang would both have a steady partner. Credit to Boyd saying he wasn't a good fit, but I don't think anyone else had red flags.

I'm with you completely on EK. I didn't think he was what they needed, but by dumping the bad deals I got on board. It was a big swing and they needed to take one to stay relevant. But it was clearly a miss. EK didn't seem motivated and Letang wasn't ready to handle moving to defensive center. Still think it might have worked out if other moves were better and EK was motivated.

Smith I was ok with, although I thought the better route was to save the third and get a younger, tougher guy like Bunting. Another guy who showed up and didn't really want to be here so it was worse than anyone really expected.

The Guentzel deal was a massive flop. First off, if they wanted to turn it around quickly, they needed to keep him. And in the trade they failed to get a first or a top prospect. Bunting is pretty good, they might have made good picks with the seconds, but it's early. Same with the prospects. Koivunen has been pretty decent but could easily flame out as a tweener like Puustinen. Maybe in future years it looks better, but this one seems bad on all fronts and completely closed any chance I thought they had of keeping their window open to compete for a playoff spot.

I agree they will retain. I think they can move Karlsson now that he has less term. Maybe this TDL, good chance in the off-season. That's if they want to, because it would open a massive hole they'd have to use most of not all the savings to fill anyways. Might depend on what's in UFA which I haven't looked at.
- Tojo.

But isn't Dubas rebuilding or not trying to be competitive? Just replace him with an AHL player for $950k

These are the exact responses only the golden boy gets. It doesn't matter what "we thought" I wanna see results. And they are bad. Some saying as bad as it's been across the entire league. That's why hes paid millions and "we" don't get paid. When his "best" move is getting a 3rd for Lars Eller after 3 years.... well ya.

A little info, that are career numbers that hopefully Dubas was able to find before making a long term signing because it only took me 2-3 minutes to find.

https://www.pensburgh.com...turbing-second-half-trend
https://www.pensburgh.com...ittsburgh-nhl-free-agency

Lets call a spade a spade here, If this was the work of Hextall there would be a full on bounty on his head across every penguins platform that existed.

Nobody cares if a baseball players swing is good if he strikes out 95% of the time.
- pens4life-66

I don't care if it's Dubas or Hextall. I didn't want either of them because neither of their previous teams won anything. I'm just adding context to individual deals that haven't worked. Everybody wants results, but most of these other GM's don't get them either. Whether it's Dubas, Hextall or someone else, I don't believe it's possible to win with old stars, no pipeline and being handcuffed to a coach who still thinks its 2016. Not to mention an ownership who seems to think they can compete and rebuild at the same time.

Anyway, this is from that first article. This is the exact context I was providing:

"I understand why the Penguins did it. There were not many free agent options available, and if we are being honest here he was probably the best one on the market. Unless they dipped into the trade market (maybe they should have?) it was not going to be easy to find a clear-cut upgrade."

It's one thing to say all the red flags were there, but I'd like to know what the critics would have done? It was a woeful UFA class and the Pens are RIGHTFULLY done trading high picks. Not to mention, the goal tender market is like Russian roulette.

As far as the other moves go... The EK move was the "moon shot". Again, it's not what I would have done, but I understood it.

The Guentz move.... My opinion is I'd never let a high value player start the season without a contract. If I'm not signing him, he's getting moved in the summer. I'm not risking the injury and I'm not getting boxed into a bad deal at the trade deadline. Same goes for Petts. I think Petts is losing value on this squad as we speak.

Dubas should have never taken a job where he couldn't fire his coach. That right there tells me he's not "the guy". FWIW I wanted Tulsky.

I don't care if it's Dubas or Hextall. I didn't want either of them because neither of their previous teams won anything. I'm just adding context to individual deals that haven't worked. Everybody wants results, but most of these other GM's don't get them either. Whether it's Dubas, Hextall or someone else, I don't believe it's possible to win with old stars, no pipeline and being handcuffed to a coach who still thinks its 2016. Not to mention an ownership who seems to think they can compete and rebuild at the same time.
- madmike71

Agree heavily with this paragraph. No matter what, Dubas did not walk into an ideal situation. Doesn't make him immune to criticism that he's made it worse, but he was given a rough task of trying to extend/reopen a window while restocking the pipeline on an aging team. Just can't point to many moves where he's done well at either.

But isn't Dubas rebuilding or not trying to be competitive? Just replace him with an AHL player for $950k
- pens4life-66

I don't think this is true. I think they want to be competitive next year by making a couple signings and getting a boost from their prospects. I don't think it will work, but I think that's what they are planning. So they'll need another RS because unless Brunicke or St. Ivany makes a huge jump to second pair to start next year, they need someone to play RD. Best case IMO is Brunicke makes the squad out of camp and works his way up, but they'd be crazy to even count on even that and he can't go to WBS next year.

That's why you maybe ride it out with EK if you can't get a return for him. I could see it going either way. But if they retain a lot, they probably won't actually get an upgrade. They could just keep him and buy Brunicke another year, and consider using all that money at once in 2026.

My guess though is EK doesn't start next year as a Penguin.

Agree heavily with this paragraph. No matter what, Dubas did not walk into an ideal situation. Doesn't make him immune to criticism that he's made it worse, but he was given a rough task of trying to extend/reopen a window while restocking the pipeline on an aging team. Just can't point to many moves where he's done well at either.
- Tojo.

Dubas didn't walk into a perfect situation, but it was about as good as you can get.

A top 5 1C
A top 5 2C
2-3 solid top 6 wingers
Average D and G but not awful.
Lacking forward depth.
Limited cap space but some shorter term contracts.
All of his 1st round picks.
A weak prospect pool but it included Blomqvist and Pickering.

He had a darn good canvas to work with. Look at what Guerin has done with Minny.... That was a bad situation to walk into...

Not many GMs walk into an ideal situation in any sport. You’re cleaning up after the last guy. Complaining about the mess is pointless. You know what you have when you sign ghe contract. Make a plan and move forward. For whatever reason dubas thought ek would help make no a push. Making deals for players at that age is (frank)in dumb.

Now he’s in a hybrid rebuild/playofff mode. Wings have been in that mode since 09.

After the guetz deal he should have been canned. Best piece of the deal is bunting lol!