It doesnt matter how any goals a player has, i have no problem with someone not liking a particular player.
But a player with the 2nd most goals AND whos on your team? Weird.
However, people hate marner and he usually leads the team in points year over year so...what can you do?
Cray is gonna cray.
- Fakepartofme

I like both players & am happy they are Leafs. To me both have warts and I have a personal opinion about which warts hurt this team more based on the way it's constructed and how the team and players have performed in specific situations.

End of the day both are Leafs and we are god dammed lucky to have both.

It's easy to hyper focus on all the things any individual player does wrong but doing so while generally ignoring all the good or great a player does is indeed weird and crazy but we see it in here a lot on both sides of the M v N fence.

I refuse to be pushed to 'pick one or the other' but I also refuse to stand by while the nauseating narrative of one being a god and one being the devil gets chanted over and over and over again every day.

It's just sad that it occurs but it is what it is.

I don't accept smaller rosters based on the sole notion that when he scored 50 in 50, Herb Cain had 32. Prior to Richard doing this the 40 goal mark had been broken once in the NHL's history (discounting the inaugural season - goalies couldn't and didn't leave their feet for the first month of the season and no one knew how to play the bloody game!).

People love to crap on Gretzky's records because goalies were so small and had no equipment. Then how come everyone wasn't scoring 90? When Gretzky had 92, the next closest had 64 or something like that.

There's a peer comparison that tells you how well a player did against similar competition year-over-year, and Richard's 50 in 50 was still pretty impressive.
- Monkeypunk

But that's the point - he wasn't competing against his peers.

The guy who finished second was Herb Cain.

Herb Cain never scored more than 17 goals outside of war years.

Apparently...

Matthews - 398 goals in his first 623 games
Ovi - 391 goals in his first 623 games

Let the real countdown begin!

There's a peer comparison that tells you how well a player did against similar competition year-over-year, and Richard's 50 in 50 was still pretty impressive.
- Monkeypunk

But don't get me wrong, I do believe Richard was a helluva goal scorer.

Sticking with your idea of peer comparison, let's look at how many Rocket Richard trophies he would have won, and compare that with others:

Richard: 5 (1 in the war years)
Charlie Conacher: 5
Gordie Howe: 5
Gretzky: 5
Phil Esposito: 6 (in a row!)
Bobby Hull: 7
Ovechkin: 9

And some ones that are lower than I would have thought:

Lemieux: 3
Bossy: 2
Brett Hull: 3
Bure: 3
Lafleur: 1

And I totally forgot Sundin in 1997-98.

I like both players & am happy they are Leafs. To me both have warts and I have a personal opinion about which warts hurt this team more based on the way it's constructed and how the team and players have performed in specific situations.

End of the day both are Leafs and we are god dammed lucky to have both.

It's easy to hyper focus on all the things any individual player does wrong but doing so while generally ignoring all the good or great a player does is indeed weird and crazy but we see it in here a lot on both sides of the M v N fence.

I refuse to be pushed to 'pick one or the other' but I also refuse to stand by while the nauseating narrative of one being a god and one being the devil gets chanted over and over and over again every day.

It's just sad that it occurs but it is what it is.
- Cush29

Remember when we complained our team had no talent?

Mtl loading up for the playoffs.

https://x.com/hcska_news/...&t=xdbwDZlJpKsy8vg5wHUWXg

I like both players & am happy they are Leafs. To me both have warts and I have a personal opinion about which warts hurt this team more based on the way it's constructed and how the team and players have performed in specific situations.

End of the day both are Leafs and we are god dammed lucky to have both.

It's easy to hyper focus on all the things any individual player does wrong but doing so while generally ignoring all the good or great a player does is indeed weird and crazy but we see it in here a lot on both sides of the M v N fence.

I refuse to be pushed to 'pick one or the other' but I also refuse to stand by while the nauseating narrative of one being a god and one being the devil gets chanted over and over and over again every day.

It's just sad that it occurs but it is what it is.
- Cush29

Youre doing hero's work.
But seriously you're letting ones hate for one player consume you. You've been on here many times over pumping willy while trying to deflate marner. We just gotta overpump both PUMP PUMP PUMP PUMP!!!! willie is a beaut at goal scoring, Marner is a wizard with the puck. Like em' both!

.......unless marner wants too much money and/or signs elsewhere....then we say our favourite was willie the future captain all along!!!

I don't accept smaller rosters based on the sole notion that when he scored 50 in 50, Herb Cain had 32. Prior to Richard doing this the 40 goal mark had been broken once in the NHL's history (discounting the inaugural season - goalies couldn't and didn't leave their feet for the first month of the season and no one knew how to play the bloody game!).

People love to crap on Gretzky's records because goalies were so small and had no equipment. Then how come everyone wasn't scoring 90? When Gretzky had 92, the next closest had 64 or something like that.

There's a peer comparison that tells you how well a player did against similar competition year-over-year, and Richard's 50 in 50 was still pretty impressive.
- Monkeypunk

Times were different. All the best players in the world played on 6 teams. There were only 6 starting goalies in the league. It wasn't watered down like it is today. It was also a lot tougher, physically. They didn't often travel on planes; they went via trains. A much more daunting task. Today's equipment is also lighter, and the sticks are made with composite materials.

Mtl loading up for the playoffs.

https://x.com/hcska_news/...&t=xdbwDZlJpKsy8vg5wHUWXg
- bryant

His team was eliminated from the KHL playoffs, so this is a smart move.

Even if the kid doesn't dress.

But that's the point - he wasn't competing against his peers.

The guy who finished second was Herb Cain.

Herb Cain never scored more than 17 goals outside of war years.
- Atomic Wedgie

Sure - but two years later, after the war, Richard had 45 which was the second highest goal total in a single season in NHL history to that date - second only to his own 50. It's not like he didn't set some precedents on his own. He didn't fluke out a single season - like Roger Maris . . . I guess. In second place the year he had 45 were Bauer and Conacher - who both had 30. That's a noteworthy amount over bonafide NHL players - even if that Conacher was a lesser one, in Roy!

Free Aethsie!!!!!

And just a word to the wise: don't post in Ek's blog. You risk being sent to an El Salvador prison being banned for absolutely no reason.

Trust me.

But don't get me wrong, I do believe Richard was a helluva goal scorer.

Sticking with your idea of peer comparison, let's look at how many Rocket Richard trophies he would have won, and compare that with others:

Richard: 5 (1 in the war years)
Charlie Conacher: 5
Gordie Howe: 5
Gretzky: 5
Phil Esposito: 6 (in a row!)
Bobby Hull: 7
Ovechkin: 9

And some ones that are lower than I would have thought:

Lemieux: 3
Bossy: 2
Brett Hull: 3
Bure: 3
Lafleur: 1

And I totally forgot Sundin in 1997-98.
- Atomic Wedgie

I once did this analysis of single-season goal differences between the #1 and the #2 goalscorer to see who had the most dominant goal scoring season of all-time. I fully expected Gretzky's 92 goal season (and #2 had 64 goals, I believe) to lead the way - but as a percentage, Gretzky was only 30.4% ahead of Bossy that ("only").

The best season of all time was both 1965-66 Bobby Hull and 1990-91 Brett Hull whose goal totals surpassed the #2 scorer by 40.7% I don't remember when I did this, but I'm pretty sure it didn't look at last year - but these were the top ones at the time of the analysis:

In 1965-66 Bobby Hull led by 40.74%
In 1990-91 Brett Hull led by 40.7%
In 1983-84 Wayne Gretzky led by 35.63%
In 1952-53 Gordie Howe led by 34.69%
In 1951-52 Gordie Howe led by 34.04%
In 1961-62 Bobby Hull led by 34%
In 1970-71 Phil Esposito led by 32.89%
In 1966-67 Bobby Hull led by 32.69%
In 1981-82 Wayne Gretzky led by 30.43%
In 1956-57 Gordie Howe led by 25%
In 1971-72 Phil Esposito led by 24.24%
In 1999-00 Pavel Bure led by 24.14%
In 1973-74 Phil Esposito led by 23.53%
In 1991-92 Brett Hull led by 22.86%
In 2001-02 Jarome Iginla led by 21.15%
In 1987-88 Mario Lemieux led by 20%
In 2007-08 Alex Ovechkin led by 20%
In 2020-21 Auston Matthews led by 19.51%
In 1955-56 Jean Beliveau led by 19.15%
In 2014-15 Alex Ovechkin led by 18.87%

The thing that got me was that I didn't know just how good Gordie Howe really was. I had always attributed his records to longevity, not the fact that he had been the best of his era.

Sure - but two years later, after the war, Richard had 45 which was the second highest goal total in a single season in NHL history to that date - second only to his own 50. It's not like he didn't set some precedents on his own. He didn't fluke out a single season - like Roger Maris . . . I guess. In second place the year he had 45 were Bauer and Conacher - who both had 30. That's a noteworthy amount over bonafide NHL players - even if that Conacher was a lesser one, in Roy!
- Monkeypunk

Let's agree on this: his 45 in 1946-47 is more impressive than his 50 in 1944-45.

Let's agree on this: his 45 in 1946-47 is more impressive than his 50 in 1944-45.
- Atomic Wedgie

I would agree on that. Certainly most records set during the war were questionable.

I once did this analysis of single-season goal differences between the #1 and the #2 goalscorer to see who had the most dominant goal scoring season of all-time. I fully expected Gretzky's 92 goal season (and #2 had 64 goals, I believe) to lead the way - but as a percentage, Gretzky was only 30.4% ahead of Bossy that ("only").

The best season of all time was both 1965-66 Bobby Hull and 1990-91 Brett Hull whose goal totals surpassed the #2 scorer by 40.7% I don't remember when I did this, but I'm pretty sure it didn't look at last year - but these were the top ones at the time of the analysis:

In 1965-66 Bobby Hull led by 40.74%
In 1990-91 Brett Hull led by 40.7%
In 1983-84 Wayne Gretzky led by 35.63%
In 1952-53 Gordie Howe led by 34.69%
In 1951-52 Gordie Howe led by 34.04%
In 1961-62 Bobby Hull led by 34%
In 1970-71 Phil Esposito led by 32.89%
In 1966-67 Bobby Hull led by 32.69%
In 1981-82 Wayne Gretzky led by 30.43%
In 1956-57 Gordie Howe led by 25%
In 1971-72 Phil Esposito led by 24.24%
In 1999-00 Pavel Bure led by 24.14%
In 1973-74 Phil Esposito led by 23.53%
In 1991-92 Brett Hull led by 22.86%
In 2001-02 Jarome Iginla led by 21.15%
In 1987-88 Mario Lemieux led by 20%
In 2007-08 Alex Ovechkin led by 20%
In 2020-21 Auston Matthews led by 19.51%
In 1955-56 Jean Beliveau led by 19.15%
In 2014-15 Alex Ovechkin led by 18.87%

The thing that got me was that I didn't know just how good Gordie Howe really was. I had always attributed his records to longevity, not the fact that he had been the best of his era.
- Monkeypunk

I heard a stat today that Ovechkin has like 18.6% of Washington’s total goals since coming into the league.

Ovie has 895 of Washington’s 4800 goals or something. He’s been running at almost a 1/5 clip for 23 years.

I would agree on that. Certainly most records set during the war were questionable.
- Monkeypunk

I know you like Lemieux...

...and I know you like statistics...

...so enjoy:

https://fivethirtyeight.c...-a-comeback-for-the-ages/

Free Aethsie!!!!!

And just a word to the wise: don't post in Ek's blog. You risk being sent to an El Salvador prison being banned for absolutely no reason.

Trust me.
- Atomic Wedgie

screw that guy! I hear he is a Marxist Leninist socialist communist who hugs trees all day

I know you like Lemieux...

...and I know you like statistics...

...so enjoy:

https://fivethirtyeight.c...-a-comeback-for-the-ages/
- Atomic Wedgie

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing this.

Remember when we complained our team had no talent?
- Atomic Wedgie

Sadly yes.

We had some talent but it was generally surrounded by m’eh. And that wasn’t the fault of the players - they were often just put into positions they didn’t belong in like a good 2nd line guy being expected to be a big time 1st liner etc.

Apparently...

Matthews - 398 goals in his first 623 games
Ovi - 391 goals in his first 623 games

Let the real countdown begin!
- Fakepartofme

Never gonna happen.

Ovechkin averaged 50 goals a season for most of his career and rarely got injured. Then kept it up after 30 which is another outlier.

Matthews gets injured every season and is way too inconsistent year to year. One year, it's 69, the next it's 30 something.

Youre doing hero's work.
But seriously you're letting ones hate for one player consume you. You've been on here many times over pumping willy while trying to deflate marner. We just gotta overpump both PUMP PUMP PUMP PUMP!!!! willie is a beaut at goal scoring, Marner is a wizard with the puck. Like em' both!

.......unless marner wants too much money and/or signs elsewhere....then we say our favourite was willie the future captain all along!!!


- Fakepartofme

I never used to have a negative thought about Marner but the constant barrage of he’s a god and Willy was the devil led me down the path of for sure pumping up Willy with a dash of deflating Marner.

Forgive me Zezel I have sinned! Dunk me in that blue drink of the gods and wash away the sin!!!!

Fun fact earlier on in the years of “the core” I wanted to move Willy out. I’ve done a 180 on that - to me he is the best playoff performer of the core group full stop.

I would love nothing more than to see him maintain his playoff play and be overshadowed by other core players this year.

That would result in a deep run for sure.

If they fail this year to me Marner is the odd man out if he wants silly money. I would not pay him Matthews money based on what he has done up to today. IMO he doesn’t deserve it in Toronto. Others will disagree which is fine but if they pay him close to AM money they are simply repeating the same salary cap era roster / cap distribution mistake IMO.

As always time will tell.

His team was eliminated from the KHL playoffs, so this is a smart move.

Even if the kid doesn't dress.
- Atomic Wedgie

Does it burn a year of his ELC?

Never gonna happen.

Ovechkin averaged 50 goals a season for most of his career and rarely got injured. Then kept it up after 30 which is another outlier.

Matthews gets injured every season and is way too inconsistent year to year. One year, it's 69, the next its 30 something.
- Rare_Jewel

69+30 =99

Divide by 2.

69+30 =99

Divide by 2.
- Cush29

Ovechkin averaged 53 goals a year his first 5 years. Matthews averaged 39.

Matthews is not making it to 1400 games played at this rate. Don't see him scoring 50 goals at 35+ either.

Lockouts probably cost Ovechkin 70-80 extra goals too.

Ovechkin averaged 53 goals a year his first 5 years. Matthews averaged 39.

Matthews is not making it to 1400 games played at this rate. Don't see him scoring 50 goals at 35+ either.

Lockouts probably cost Ovechkin 70-80 extra goals too.
- Rare_Jewel

Because you say so?

You started with Ovi averages 50 goals per season but suddenly that means less than what he averages his first 5 years in the league.

Don’t hurt yourself moving those goalposts.